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Does it matter where a guitar's made? And are these 2 Twins?

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(@slejhamer)
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Many thanks Chris. This will be a fretless conversion so I'll be filing the nut down in any case, but hopefully it won't be soft as cheese, like the nut that came with the Indonesian-made Allparts replacement neck I got for my '51 ...

"Everybody got to elevate from the norm."


   
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(@the-dali)
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Any chance that the "tour" missed the more modern aspect of the factory? Perhaps Gibson was trying to focus on the hand-made aspect of their factory, but that there is more to the Gibson factory than what is shown on the video?

-=- Steve

"If the moon were made of ribs, would you eat it?"


   
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(@ignar-hillstrom)
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The question whether or not China has the technical know-how is nonsense: practically all factories are build by western companies and those factories will have whatever quality is considered nescessary. Even in the case the Party would consider it essential to have a National Guitar Factory or some such then it would still not matter: if you can make a long-range IR-guide missile I assume you can also find a way to carve a block of wood.

The problem is therefor not China itself, but the motivations behind such factories. Fender has it's history with their Japanese factory, which was practically closed because the quality was too good. They moved it to cheaper areas (Indonesia, Korea) but with the explicit intent to create worse instruments in order not to eat into their own MIA profits. Are these new Squirers worse then the Japanese one? From a technical perspective the answer is probably yes. But that is not because it is made in inferior nations, or nations with inferior guitar production capabilities, but because the companies that own them do not desire cheap high-quality instruments.

Exceptions are ofcourse those companies that have firm roots in Asia, like Yamaha. I'm sure everyone would agree that, regardless of taste and preferences, Yamaha pumps out incredibly good guitars for very reasonable prices.


   
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(@biker_jim_uk)
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The main Epiphone site has a big article on their new Chinese factory, they seem quite pleased with it.


   
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(@citizennoir)
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Well, I agree.
As long as a guitar looks, feels, & sounds GREAT....
Only problem is, I've never experienced a non-American made guitar that had any of those qualities.

No - sorry. I have.
A mid 80's Japanese made Fender 69 Tele Thinline RI w/mahogany body.
Best darn guitar I ever heard.

I'm sorry.
I just don't see the attraction to cheaper Asian made guitars.

Like I've said about the MIM Fenders.... it's way more than the pups that are different.

Though I have to agree with Sleutelbos....
As I just said, a MIJ Fender was by far the greatest sounding guitar I ever heard.
Their quality was OUTSTANDING!
And having quite a bit of experience in various factories myself, and knowing a bit about the superior Japanese
factory system (compared to the U.S.)
Really, there is no reason for Korean & Chinese made things to be cheap other than by design.

If they were given the same components as are used on MIA Fenders, I'm sure theirs would be better.

Incidentally - on the Sg's in question...
The Chinese had the strap button in the correct place, and the slightly offset backplate seems to be the way I remember
my 'Real' Gibson SG to be.
(It was a Real 1963 SG and cost me 200 bucks (U.S.)
A bit less than a new epi would've cost me.)

And the body 'woods' look different on them as well.
The Korean one looks more like mahogany than the other.
Though I'm sure that they're both vaniered.

It seems to me that the people that have Asian made guitars, have quite a few guitars in their collections.
And still they want more.
What's with that????
Are you all really that happy with their performance????

I have my MIA Strat on my frontroom wall and my MIA acoustic propped in a corner.
My 71 strat is under lock and key in a vault in another state.
And I'm quite pleased and happy with what I have.

Waste Waste Waste
I say - sell ALL of yer Asian guitars and buy ONE MIA guitar. (Or better yet - a VINTAGE MIA guitar)

Ken :wink:

"The man who has begun to live more seriously within
begins to live more simply without"
-Ernest Hemingway

"A genuine individual is an outright nuisance in a factory"
-Orson Welles


   
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(@chris-c)
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Any chance that the "tour" missed the more modern aspect of the factory? Perhaps Gibson was trying to focus on the hand-made aspect of their factory, but that there is more to the Gibson factory than what is shown on the video?

My guess is probably no, although it's certainly the sort of impression that a PR blurb might try to create - so who knows? I've seen outrageous fudges by a brewery (that is now basically a huge chemical factory) trying to create a "Ye Olde" image. But the Gibson tour looked to me to be a pretty honest representation. Their site mentions that the plant was built in 1974 and that Gibson nearly collapsed financially in the 80s but was 'rescued'
The financially troubled company was rescued in January 1986 by Henry Juszkiewicz and David Berryman, and the new owners quickly restored Gibson's reputation for quality as well as its profitability.

This sounds like a plant that's now around thirty years old and has already had some accountancy style pruning done by management. There is a dilemma faced by all companies - especially medium sized ones - when and whether to spend a hell of a lot of money to completely modernise again. Each new competing factory has the chance to build afresh with State of the Art gear and methods. Gibson looked in 'half way land' - not Ye Olde but not really totally modern either. Not small and exclusive, but not a big streamlined monolith either. For manufacturers of any product that's a tough place to be. You usually have to put alot of faith in reputation and brand loyalty.

As Sleutelbos accurately pointed out, the Chinese are perfectly capable of very high quality work. If you go back in history there were times when their culture and technology was actually ahead of the West, and was widely admired and copied. As he also points out, it's the current demand for cheap goods that's currently driving the Chinese expansion - given the opportunity they will be able to match their Asian neighbours, or anywhere in the West.

When I bought the Chinese Epi I also played a US made Gibson SG, unplugged and through the same amp. It was a better guitar. The most obvious difference was that it had much better strings on, but there was also that hard to define "something" that made it more desirable. It just looked and sounded that touch better. But that model was nearly four times the price of the Epi. It certainly wasn't four times better. But if I want that small difference, and the sense of history, then I'll have to save up the money...

A couple of week ago I took my cheap banjo to my friend's music shop to compare it with a better brand (at 3 times the price) that he had on consignment. We both played each one and both agreed that the expensive one sounded better. It certainly looked better, and it felt a little more solid. Then, in turn, we did a 'blindfold test' by facing the other way while the other person played both banjos. When we did this I couldn't tell any difference at all, and he actually picked the cheapie as sounding better... :oops: :D

I suspect that if I put the same strings on the Gibson and the Epi, and did the same test, then I'd probably be unable to pick the difference. However, an experienced pro possibly could pick the variation in pickup style. Change the amp settings a bit and you could probably fool most listeners.

So is there any reason at all why I should save all that money to get a very small difference from the Gibson? Is the name, history, fractionally different finish and sound worth all that?

I've started saving. I'm currently one quarter of the way there..... :roll: :roll: Mad.... :wink:

Cheers,

Chris


   
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(@chris-c)
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And the body 'woods' look different on them as well.
The Korean one looks more like mahogany than the other.
Though I'm sure that they're both vaniered.

Well spotted Ken! I'm impressed. 8)

The Korean one is actually solid wood, but the Chinese one IS veneered. That heavier stain now makes perfect sense - it's 'smoothing over' the blend between the two woods. As an ex-woodworker I'm ashamed to admit that I didn't even bother to look, having already given the Korean solid body a good going over... :oops: :oops:

There are quite a few local Asian timber variations that go by the general name 'mahogany' so it's likely that neither of the Epis is made from exactly the same type of tree as the Gibson. The veneer on the Chinese one does look a little closer though, so perhaps that was the idea behind the veneer? Although it could just be an excuse to use an even cheaper body timber. My ear isn't really yet good enough to pick what tonal difference between the two Epis is due to the woods, and what is down to the different age and brand of the strings I've got on them. Fortunately they both sound good to me, but I'll be interested to see if a preference develops.

Either way that looks like a +1 for the sales pitch that the Gibson is built with a better quality 'tone-wood'. 8)
It seems to me that the people that have Asian made guitars, have quite a few guitars in their collections.
And still they want more.
What's with that????
Are you all really that happy with their performance????

:D Nice one! :lol:

But I'd say "Yes I'm happy". My guitars are mostly different because of the style - i.e 1 bass, 1 archtop hollow body, 1 nylon string Classical, 1 basic acoustic and 1 electric/acoustic (both good, but with different characteristics due to 1 spruce top & 1 cedar) 2 Epi SG400s (see above for lame excuses...) 1 excellent Yamaha 'Les Paul style' and a couple of cheapish Strat copies (1 was my first electric and the other was bought purely to leave in the car to practice fingering while I was waiting. The only criteria was that it have a neck and be cheap, and that I wouldn't cry if it got dented or warped.)

I'm sure that I'll add a US made Gibson to the collection eventually - and I'd be happy to give away the cheap Strat knock-off. But I just like collecting guitars, and they all have their place. :) Fortunately, my wife also likes the look of musical instruments, so when I'm not fiddling with them we hang them on the walls for decoration. They're cheaper than an original painting, they're good to look at, and you can play them as well.... :wink: :wink:

Cheers,

Chris


   
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(@citizennoir)
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The Korean one is actually solid wood, but the Chinese one IS veneered. That heavier stain now makes perfect sense - it's 'smoothing over' the blend between the two woods.

Now I'm impressed.
One actually does have a solid wood body....?
That's great.
I can't really make any educated comments on Epi's.
My knowledge is more on Fenders.

It seems that from all I've heard, Epi's build quality is superb.
I am impressed that an Epi has a solid wood body, as the cheaper Fenders really don't.
And having had one vaniered body guitar, I can tell you it makes a big difference.

As far as the differences in new strings go....
On my acoustic, old strings start to sound like they are being played through the sonic equivalent of a wet blanket.
On my electrics.... Most notably they lose sustain.
The strings feel tight and the sound is less full.
A general loss of vibration I guess.
Though the acoustic properties seem to be less effected on the electrics.
Kinda hard to explain. :?

My experience with vaniered bodied guitars has me hearing an overall tininess.
Though like I have said - I can 'hear' the wood on an electric very distinctly.
Many people probably couldn't hear it.

I must admit - You have me with the collection-o-guitars being for different sounds.
I'd love to have an Epi Zephyr Blues Deluxe for that T-Bone Walker look/sound. (Pups & hardware may need replacing)
Or a vintage Gibbo ES-125. I played some years ago.... great guitars.
Love to have one for slide. (I think GT uses a variant of one)
Don't even get me started on Teles.... Way too many GREAT ones to choose just one!
And my dream guitar.... A 55 Gibbo Goldtop :shock:
Yes. A Gibson (I'm so ashamed :oops: )
:lol:

It also seems very apparent that people in countries other than the U.S. pay a great deal more for guitars.
So, I guess I can't fault anyone for trying to find what they think a guitar is worth paying for.
I would hate to think of what a real vintage guitar costs overseas.

A great Thread Chris :D
ThankX

Ken

Edit - Oh yeah....
I keep forgetting....
If there is a difference in sound between the two SG's,
it's most likely due to one having a black nut and the other a white nut.
Everyone knows that the color of the nut is the most important tonal factor there is.
:twisted: :D :wink:

"The man who has begun to live more seriously within
begins to live more simply without"
-Ernest Hemingway

"A genuine individual is an outright nuisance in a factory"
-Orson Welles


   
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(@chris-c)
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Topic starter  

Here's some more pics.

Solid Korean body

Chinese body.

Also all wood, but with a thin veneer on the front and back that is of a darker wood with a more attractive grain than the main bulk of the body. At least the veneeer is wood and not some kind of screen-printed mock 'wood look'(I took the back plate off and checked if the apparent thickness was real or not). :) The Chinese guitar is also about 5 or 6% heavier than the Korean one.

Chris


   
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(@citizennoir)
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Wow, I really like that Korean one.
The Chinese one seems too 'perfect' looking to me.
My old SG had a mahogany body with the cherry finish, and the wood grain was very 'spotty'.

Here's a pic of a new Gibbo 61 SG RI....

As for the heaviness of the Chinese one...
Didin't you say that it was longer and the body bigger????
The body kinda looks a bit more 'rounder' in one of the pics.
That could account for the additional weight.

Ken

"The man who has begun to live more seriously within
begins to live more simply without"
-Ernest Hemingway

"A genuine individual is an outright nuisance in a factory"
-Orson Welles


   
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(@nicktorres)
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Posts: 5381
 

My 2 cents....

It doesn't matter where they are made as long as it's Bozeman, Nazareth or El Cajon.


   
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(@ignar-hillstrom)
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It seems to me that the people that have Asian made guitars, have quite a few guitars in their collections.
And still they want more.
What's with that????
Are you all really that happy with their performance????

Yes, I am. I'm willing to put my Japanese RG550 (original version) up to whatever Fender you've got and I'll bet ten bucks the Ibby will have way lower action and higher tuning stability. My current #1 is a Japanese guyatone from the 60s. It doesn't stay in tune, only has one pup, is 75% of a normal guitar size-wise, and the tone knob is broken. This one is about as bad as it gets but I'd take it over any other guitar I;ve seen so far. Playing it is an adventure, you just don't know how long it'll stay in tune or whether or not a note is going to crap out or not. If I want to play safe I either get the RG550 for rock or the Korean jazzbox.

I don't actually look for more guitars anymore, I've got what I want, all from Asia. I'll be getting an Korean violin next week, and am looking at some Asian trumpets as well. My digital piano, master controller and keybord all are from Asia, my bluesharp is from Germany. I've two accoustics and I'm happy enough with them, the western is from Korea and the classical one from Spain. Maybe it's because I'm from the Netherlands but I''m not that much into from where something is. I've played a number of USA fenders, both standard, deluxe and H1 and most of them were really nice guitars. None of them really would add much to my collection and none is, to me and in my situation, worth the money. MIJs go for half the price of a new MIA and an original RG550 goes for $200 or so (why anyone would get the re-issue is a mystery to me!)
When I bought the Chinese Epi I also played a US made Gibson SG, unplugged and through the same amp. It was a better guitar. The most obvious difference was that it had much better strings on, but there was also that hard to define "something" that made it more desirable. It just looked and sounded that touch better. But that model was nearly four times the price of the Epi. It certainly wasn't four times better.

Don't forget that Chinese Epis are way less well setup then Gibsons to increase the perceived difference in quality. Next time you're at GC take a good look at the Epis and you'll see that probably all of them either have fretbuzz or needlessly high action, whereas the Gibbies are all nice and smoothly setup. Really lame if you ask me, but then again, us consumers aren't willing to pay the extra $20 to have the Epi play twice as nice.


   
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(@bluezoldy)
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Posts: 329
 

Great conversation, guys, keep it going. :)

It's the first such discussion I've come across that uses facts and is not just based on an emotional response to a brand name. I'm a newbie so my experience on quality, tone etc. is nil.

All of my guitars except my MIM Strat are made in Asia (China, Indonesia & Korea). Each one was setup by a professional luthier after purchasing. The luthier told me he very impressed with the quality of all of them. Even at this early stage I've fallen for the collector's weakness (collector in the sense of numbers not for historical or potential further values).

When I see US Gibsons and Fenders selling in Australia for four or five thousand dollars, I really have to wonder on their true value (even if they do come with a nice case :D). Yes, if I won Lotto I would buy them but I doubt I would ever be convinced I was getting value for my money.

♪♫ Ron ♪♫

http://www.myspace.com/bluemountainsblues


   
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(@chris-c)
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Even at this early stage I've fallen for the collector's weakness (collector in the sense of numbers not for historical or potential further values).

When I see US Gibsons and Fenders selling in Australia for four or five thousand dollars, I really have to wonder on their true value (even if they do come with a nice case :D). Yes, if I won Lotto I would buy them but I doubt I would ever be convinced I was getting value for my money.

:D

I think that you and I are running fairly level when it comes to buying more guitars than either of us actually needs. I've also started to fall back on the description of "collector" (with a small c). :P

Value for money is such a personal thing though. The same applies to cars. You can buy a perfectly good cheap Korean made car here that will get you from A to B reliably, will comfortably do the maximum legal speed limit, and which won't cost much. It just might not get the pulse racing all that often. :) On the other hand you can buy a car costing several times as much which is still legally restricted to the same top speed limit and which might even be less reliable. But the right one can make your heart beat faster and put a smile on your face just looking at it. 8) Or there's even the car that's not got much of anything going for it except character and a particular place in your own personal history, and which you still have an irrational love for years after it went to scrapyard heaven...

On the day I bought the Chinese Epi, I also played the Gibson and it was clearly a better guitar. Not four times better (but how would you judge that sort of maths anyway - you can't) but better. The wood was better quality, and not just in looks - it sounded better unplugged too. We had a discussion on another thread about how and why different woods DO have an effect on the sound of electric guitars as well as acoustics, so I know that Ken strongly supported that view. On that day I got a good demonstration of what he meant. I don't find it so clear between the two Epis yet, but it was noticeable with the Gibson - as it should be if the extra time and effort plus additional money spent on materials isn't pointless. There were also just small details that looked, sounded and felt better. Not really because it was made in the USA, or because of the Gibson name, but because it was built to be a better quality guitar aimed at further up the range.

Logically, fast big name cars aren't worth what you pay for them. Except if you can afford to own and drive them - then they're often worth every penny. 8) I can get the Gibson I'm interested in for a couple of grand (maybe less) and it won't really be 'worth' all that much more than the Korean Epi.... except when I hold it in my hands and play it.... then it probably will be... I'm already drooling a bit just looking at the picture that Ken just posted... Funny, eh? :roll: :twisted:

Cheers,

Chris


   
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(@trguitar)
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I have several made in China guitars as well as several made in Korea. All are quality instruments. Back in 1982 when I bought my first Les Paul I could have bought an Epiphone SG. Do you know where it was made? Do you? Huh? Huh?

"Work hard, rock hard, eat hard, sleep hard,
grow big, wear glasses if you need 'em."
-- The Webb Wilder Credo --


   
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