Genius??

2 people who pop into my head are Bono and Lennon/McCartney (they were geniuses together). Lennon and McCartney are easy...it's amazing that any song of theirs sung by almost any artist will sound good. You can be a crap musician in the creativity department, but the songs are so perfectly timeless and wonderful that it'll make Esteban sound good.

I think Bono's a genius not only for musical reasons by also because he manages to make his music and his personal interests into one. I have a deep admiration for him and his endeavours. I consider him a lyrical genius, just because his words have simple meanings as well as different meanings, and they can transcend time. For example, Sunday Bloody Sunday, written about the famous Bloody Sunday in Ireland of the 70s, (it was the 70s right? I wasn't alive, so im not sure hahaha), is a wonderful lyric about the troubles of the time. but as he's been saying again and again during the Vertigo Tour, the song belongs to america now, because of things like 9/11 and the stupid war in iraq. I remember seeing U2 in October and when they started the song, bono said "America, this is your song now!" I listened to the song again and the lyrics really did fit. so that's why i think he's a genius, because he can write lyrics (or poems, cos songs are just poems set to music) that can be relevant to so many people at so m any different times.

I'd say they tend to be artists who make you hear (see) things in a way you've not heard or seen them before. Chuck Berry did that with the Blues and invented rock n roll. Lennon & McCartney did it to rock and roll and invented rock, etc. Just a quick thought.

There was a philosopher - Solon, I think - who said you can't judge a man's real worth until long after he's gone. That's probably true. You need enough time to pass to eliminate both popularity and nostalgia from the equation.

In his day, J.S. Bach was known as an organist - a good one, but maybe not as good as Buxtehude. 50 years or so after he died, a few composers studied his works, but people in general (even people like Mozart) thought the real geniuses in the Bach family were his sons J.C. and C.P.E. Bach. Now that we've had a couple hundred more years to consider their works, we don't hold those two in such high regard - but music students everywhere are taught the works of J.S., and he's considered a genius of counterpoint.

So it seems to me that people who are called 'geniuses' in their heyday, or even in the generation afterward, may not be around for the long haul. Real genius is recognized a long time after the fact, as people slowly realize just how unique their music was - we're now seeing growing appreciation for folks like Robert Johnson, nearly 70 years after he died. I think that's a sign of a genius - their works truly live on in the long haul, after the time for nostalgia has passed.

Eliminating nostalgia is important. Flip on an oldies station, and you might hear the Dixie Cups ("Going to the Chapel"). You won't hear Jimmy Dorsey's big band - but 20-30 years ago you could find that on the radio. That doesn't make the Dixie Cups music 'better' - its just that Jimmy's fans are dying off.

So judging someone like Cobain, Lennon, or anyone else we can personally remember as a geniuses seems premature to me. In 100 years, they might be familiar like Mozart - or they might be like his rival Salieri instead, known to a few... and maybe folks will be talking in retrospect about what a genius Lyle Lovett was, or someone else who's a lesser-known today.

In the case of someone like Lennon, I'll bet he'll be remembered because his influence is so wide. But whether he's remembered as a genius in his own right like Mozart or Bach, or remembered as a near-genius who profoundly influenced later geniuses (like Palestrina or Fux is remembered today) remains to be seen, and most of us won't be around for the final determination.

Noteboat makes an excellent point.

Cobain is well thought of because of his influence on contemporary music. But the question of genius is deeper than the question of influence. Genius is about expressing musical ideas that are in some respect timeless. Generation after generation should be able to look back and say "Wow, look how cool that was!"

In that respect, I'm not sure that Lennon or Cobain are going to have that mantle on their heads a hundred years from now.

Lennon wrote a lot of cool music, but is he going to be thought of as Mozart and Bach or is he going to be thought of more like Henry Purcell -- someone who wrote a lot of really good stuff for the people to enjoy, but who really didn't do anything extrodinary.

Cobain I don't think will ever deserve the genius tag, and the Beatles may get thought of that was as lyricists, but not as composers . .. I could be wrong, but that's my take.

The problem with the genius label is it's usually bestowed by non-geniuses -- and often too freely.

I think most musicians are geniouses. Just because most of them have a lot of creative power behind them. Most musicians also have their influences and study what has worked for their influences and put it altogether in their own sound. And if it sounds good, then in my opinion, they are a genious.

Will musicians like Lennon or Cobain be labelled as a genious 100 years from now? I don't know.

A genious to me is anyone burst with raw creativity. Regardless of how big an impact they have.

I've considered this myself somewhat recently because I think my dad's been called a genius a lot in his life time and at the ripe age of 60 something he genuinely believes it. He certainly suffers the by-products that people typically attach to the title, but I have difficulty grasping the fact that some people may be dumber then I am or they may be smarter. It's like trying to reach into a perspective you never have and never will know, and either admire or disgrace someone for it. It's an impossible task. Yet there is obviously some sort of difference.

I don't know what makes the old master's considered more of a genius then contemporary composers. Or what even makes them masters. People seem to attribute experience of an art form to a person even after their dead. Mozart's been dead for some five odd hundred years so he must be five hundred years wiser musically then us, right?
Probably not.
Chances are, as time grows farther and farther from the era in which the music was created, the source, or inspiration, becomes forgotten or blurred and turns the resulting music into a more mystical form, and in the end, what is the word Genius but a symbol of mystery? This person has a knowledge and ability that will forever be an unknown to me. I had a friend that believed Jimi Hendrix communicated with god when he played the guitar for that reason.

I would like to say that Kurt Cobain is a genius because I really admire him, and his lyrics are like nothing I've ever seen before, but if the only requirement for using the word genius is to not know exactly what it means or who it might refer to then I'll pass.

That's just my take anyway.

genious, you say, i say jimmy page, that is a musical genious, he was, not only one of the
most influential guitar players of all time, but , with out a doubt, one of the best song writers
that ever lived.

genious, you say, i say jimmy page, that is a musical genious, he was, not only one of the
most influential guitar players of all time, but , with out a doubt, one of the best song writers
that ever lived.

Agreed. Although in my stupidity I must admit I didnt know he was a song writer but man the things Page could do on the guitar was genious in itself. I admit guitarist that can made the thing sing... Great addition

Geoo

Musical genius = Prince.

He plays over 20 instruments and has the gift of exceptional musical expression. His improvisational skills are broad, varied and of instant application.

Or Ray Charles.

Old blue eyes called him "the only genius in the business". He had a huge part in shaping rhythm and blues and rock and roll.

page wrote every song zeppelin ever did

page wrote every song zeppelin ever did

Not true. They covered some old blues songs on occasion. I Can't Quit You was written by blues legend Willie Dixon. You Shook Me is by Dixon as well. And Bring It On Home, another Dixon piece. Gallows Pole, while arranged by Page and Plant is an old folk song as is Hats Off To (Roy) Harper. When The Levee Breaks, if I'm not mistaken, is an old Memphis Minnie song although everyone in Led Zep got his name on the writing credits.

That's just the first four albums...

Peace

You know I never would have thought of prince. I've been meaning to get into his stuff to see if I would like it. If were going for the amout of instruments one can play I think Bowie would fit well in that boat. I don't know the official number but he's usually accredited with most the instruments on his cd's, and those instruments vary dramatically.

I think being androgenous has alot to do with being considered a genius. I don't know what it is, any guy that looks good in a dress is just hypnotizing.

david,

i know zep covered alot of old r&b tunes, but every song that was written by
zeppelin, was written by jimmy page, plus what he did in the studio was incredible imo