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Just how important is high end gear?

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(@niklas)
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Jack White used some cheap Sears-guitar with the White Stripes. Not sure what pickups he used in it though. For sound the electronics are a much more dominant factor than everything else. So this discussion should really be applied to acoustics in my opinion if we're going to take about different quality in woods.

Jack white might not be a good example. He relishes lo-fi tone and he's all about throwing a lot of noise out and doesn't care about dynamics, and I love his tone. But his guitar isn't contending with a lot of other frequencies either. Also, I disagree that the quality of wood is more of a factor in acoustics than electrics. I strongly feel the opposite. I'm not a Les Paul guy but for the sake of sticking with the example; if anyone's ever played a really light Paul with PAF's or T tops cranked up you understand why people are clamoring over the originals. They are living breathing animals and you can literally feel the notes through your arms. Bob Benedetto (the master of Jazz Guitars) semi-recently made an acoustic jazz guitar out of construction grade lumber to illustrate how construction methods are far more important than the quality of wood. Back in the 80's and 90's people were beating each other over the head to get the tightest, straightest grains on their spruce tops until they realized there wasn't any tonal difference to the cheap old B stock tops. I just last week played a Gibson J45 back to back with a Epiphone's version, the AJ400 (i think that's the model) and the Gibson sounded better in an A/b test but only when I really dug into it.

Interesting, because my experience is different. What you really should try when we're talking high-end acoustics is Martins though. I think their reputation is very well deserved. Or any other brand that specializes in acoustic guitars. I have a Furch acoustic which sounds a lot better than other guitars in the same pricerange (£1100), including Gibsons. I tried to buy an acoustic for less, but they just lacked the sound/tone I wanted, otherwise I would have! Nothing did even come close including a Taylor for £1000. That is because a huge sum of the price for the Gibson and Taylor guitars are paying for commercials and shipping etc. I only want to pay for the actual guitar.

Epiphone's version of the Gibson guitars hold up very well, so I'm not to surprised there wasn't a big difference.

And I agree with rparker, the amp is so much more important than the guitar if we're only talking sound anyway. You can get away with a cheap guitar. It is a lot harder to sound good with a cheap amp. After all, that's where the actual sound is produced.

"Talent is luck. The important thing in life is courage."


   
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(@ezraplaysezra)
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Interesting, because my experience is different. What you really should try when we're talking high-end acoustics is Martins though. I think their reputation is very well deserved. Or any other brand that specializes in acoustic guitars.

The 1961 Martin D-18 (sort of high-end) that I grew up with normally reside in my den, my sister has it on long term loan down in NYC. I also have an Aspen Leaf and a late 60's Epiphone FT160, though my acoustic guitar collection is sort of coincidental. But, I wouldn't discount Gibson as a brand that doesn't specialize in acoustic guitars, they have been at it since 1896.


   
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(@robparis)
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When you are starting out, you may be
tempted to want the best gear.

You want the most expensive guitar,
the best computer (maybe even an expensive Mac),
the best stage clothes - the full list.

I'm here to tell you that you don't need them.
Now, don't get me wrong.

Having good equipment helps. But having good
equipment does not guarantee success.
If you don't know how to play on a cheap guitar,
you can't do wonders on an expensive ones.

Or to take a more generic example, a rock god
can take a guitar from a pawn shop and raise
the living dead with it. You can take a $50.000
guitar and still sound like you.

Or to give you another analogy, if you want to run,
you run. Even with your foot naked. You don't need
to buy $500 Nike's to run better. Those are for experts.

And when you'll be an expert, you may need them.
But not now. So for now, don't find an excuse in the
lack of good equipment. You have a guitar, you have
a computer, you have a set of clothes.

Use them, work on your skills and you'll
improvement them later. You'll improve
them when you're at a level at which your
current gear is not keeping up with you.

But my friend ... you'll have to work a bit to
reach that point in time.

And never, never, use this an excuse.

Only losers say - I don't do this because I don't
have better equipment. Find a solution and get to work.

Check out my new guitar blogg! (click below)

http://www.guitarbeyondreason.com/
Its only rock n roll but I like it!


   
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(@niklas)
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Or to give you another analogy, if you want to run,
you run. Even with your foot naked. You don't need
to buy $500 Nike's to run better. Those are for experts.

No, I wouldn't think of running without shoes. That would just end up ruining your feet. I had som cheap trainers and if I ran 10 km I couldn't walk for an entire week, so I bought new better ones which a pro helped med pick out and now I havn't got any problems at all. They also made me run 30 seconds faster/km, because of the support was correct.

The same goes on stage. I wouldn't want to play with a cheap, unreliable guitar, like the one I started out on. Sure, the best stuff is seldom needed, but if you're serious you need somewhat serious equipment.

"Talent is luck. The important thing in life is courage."


   
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(@ezraplaysezra)
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Unless you're Jack White or a Kenyon, of coarse.


   
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(@niklas)
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Unless you're Jack White or a Kenyon, of coarse.

Hm, yeah... So it's when you're really good at something you don't need the expensive stuff? Or the shoes at all? :P

"Talent is luck. The important thing in life is courage."


   
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 Crow
(@crow)
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I wouldn't want to play with a cheap, unreliable guitar, like the one I started out on. Sure, the best stuff is seldom needed, but if you're serious you need somewhat serious equipment.

That qualifier is huge. My cheap but reliable Charvel import is at least "somewhat" serious. My lowest-of-the-low-end Kalamazoo solid body with Melody Maker pickups is reliable and FAR more serious than its looks or its cost ($35 in pieces at a Kansas City thrift store). Same for my Spectrum strat copy, which began its life as part of one of those department-store beginner's package deals with a cheap little amp & cable & plastic strap... and I could go on.

Some things are relative. What are our criteria for "high-end" gear? A price point? Name on the peghead? Reputation?

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa


   
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(@niklas)
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I wouldn't want to play with a cheap, unreliable guitar, like the one I started out on. Sure, the best stuff is seldom needed, but if you're serious you need somewhat serious equipment.

That qualifier is huge. My cheap but reliable Charvel import is at least "somewhat" serious. My lowest-of-the-low-end Kalamazoo solid body with Melody Maker pickups is reliable and FAR more serious than its looks or its cost ($35 in pieces at a Kansas City thrift store). Same for my Spectrum strat copy, which began its life as part of one of those department-store beginner's package deals with a cheap little amp & cable & plastic strap... and I could go on.

Some things are relative. What are our criteria for "high-end" gear? A price point? Name on the peghead? Reputation?

In my experience the cheap no-name starter pack guitars miss what I want like neck-trough body design, hot enough pickups and descent tuners. I can't play the music I want on them without a lot of help from pedals and constant tuning and that kind of ruins it for me.

I think of high-end gear as the top of the line guitars from the main manufactors (Fender, Gibson, Gretsch). Don't have to go into custom territory though. But I think the top of the line guitars from other manufactors at half the price should be considered high-end too (Schecter etc.). It's the same materials. So for me I guess it's certain stuff like if it's an ebony fingerboard, neck-trough body construction, quality pickups.

Just watched the videoclip. I thought it sounded just like any amateur playing a Spider-amp through a crappy camera/phone-microphone.

"Talent is luck. The important thing in life is courage."


   
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 cnev
(@cnev)
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If you are talking strictly about function then low end stuff can work if you are talking craftsmanship, name ect then it's high end.

I can go to the grocery store in a beat up VW but I'd rather drive there in a Lamborgini if I had a choice.

"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!


   
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(@niklas)
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If you are talking strictly about function then low end stuff can work if you are talking craftsmanship, name ect then it's high end.

I can go to the grocery store in a beat up VW but I'd rather drive there in a Lamborgini if I had a choice.

Hey now, VW are very good cars. German quality is probably the best in the world. A lot better than Italian for sure. I have such a big problem with peoples complete obsession with brands. I just don't understand it.

I bet you would have a safer ride in the VW too. Why do I even bother bringing this up. Because the same applies to guitars. Why pay so much money for looks and a brand name? Why does a name make it high-end?

No, I don't understand Gucci and Versace neither. A bag is a bag... and I think the men here agree with me on this one?

I really hear a difference between the middle-segment and the low-end stuff. I was choosing between two bass players for my band. One had a cheap J&D-bass (guitarshops own knock-off brand) and the other a nice Warwick (not overly expensive though). The one with the Warwick sounded A LOT better. And no, it wasn't the player. I would say the guy with the J&D-bass is a bit better.

I choose the bassplayer with the Warwick. I can't take the J&D-guy seriously with the bass he has. It just doesn't sound good.

"Talent is luck. The important thing in life is courage."


   
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 Crow
(@crow)
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I don't understand Gucci and Versace neither. A bag is a bag... and I think the men here agree with me on this one?

Sure. There's that...
I really hear a difference between the middle-segment and the low-end stuff. I was choosing between two bass players for my band. One had a cheap J&D-bass (guitarshops own knock-off brand) and the other a nice Warwick (not overly expensive though). The one with the Warwick sounded A LOT better. And no, it wasn't the player. I would say the guy with the J&D-bass is a bit better.

I choose the bassplayer with the Warwick. I can't take the J&D-guy seriously with the bass he has. It just doesn't sound good.

...and there's THAT. That is wrong. Shallow and wrong. I suggest, sir, that you are listening with your eyes, swayed by the pretty Warwick. Five or six gigs would pay for a better bass than the J&D... but that player won't get that chance.

I intend no offense, but I do think a reality check is in order.

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa


   
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(@ezraplaysezra)
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Good points. Maybe we are getting to the heart of the question, but no ones really nailed it. I think we're all kind of beating around it, it ain't price, it ain't wood, and it ain't name alone. So, instead of asking if high-end gear is important, which is sort of subjective, maybe we should be looking for a definition of high-end guitars. I'll take a whack at it.
Submitted for your approval:

Ezra's personal definition of guitar grades.
all definitions submitted are the expressed opinions of EzraplaysEzra and are not to be representative of actual definitions or reasonable thoughts. Individual opinions may vary.

Student Guitars: entry level guitars meant to be used to acquaint new users with the functions of the guitar without relieving them of a large monetary commitment. (see also, cheapo and POS) Back in the day, student models often meant a shorter scale and lighter model with a sparse employment of features, but more recently student models have come to mean nearly disposable versions of standard models that have no real intrinsic value on the market. Some vintage type student models like the Gibson Melody Maker and the Fender Mustang are very collectible, and some entry level guitars are made to a standard that they can almost be considered with moderately priced models.

Mid-level, Standard and "Import" models: This is the most common segment created when manufactures, mostly in Japan, found a gap in the market between standard and student models. Before the import market, most common manufacturers produced standard professional models and a few student models. "Import" was at one time a derogatory and mostly used to describe any full size guitar resembleing or based upon standard models from the established guitar makers. But, as the quality of the import's improved they began to vie for a share of the market place. After many failed attempts by fender and gibson (mostly) to stop them through legal action, the larger companies realized they needed to offer models at a more reasonable price point. Since than, hundreds of other companies have cropped up to join the market segment. For the most part, mid-level guitars are quality instruments that can function on a level with professional models but make some sacrifices in order to be available and affordable to most musicians. Most are designed to be recognized as stable mates of professional models but few have any collectible value. Standard models generally suffer from lower quality components but could be used though an entire career with component repairs and maintenance.

High-end and Professional Models: Formerly standard models, professional models are an offering from any given manufacturer that represents the truest iteration of the model it represents without stipulations of quality. High-end guitars should be able achieve all of the expectations of the model without consideration of other models whereas mid level guitars are often charged to be "jacks of all trades and masters of none". Theoretically, a high-end guitar should be able to stand as the only guitar a professional might need to work in his genre with the expectation that the guitar outlast the career of the owner while retaining its value in whole or exceed it over time.

That's what I came up with, its not perfect but it covers quit a bit. I think, by my own definition Fender, for example, doesn't offer a professional model for under $2000, which I don't think is completely accurate but a lot of this is muddled by the astounding number of guitars the big manufactures offer in the same model range in their insane quest to have a model for everybody at every price point. A really good indicator is simply, is this a model many professionals play? But, really this is all subjective too. The definition of High-end guitars are like the supreme courts definition of Pornography, I can't define it but I know it when I see it. Thanks for letting me ramble.


   
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 Crow
(@crow)
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Thanks for letting me ramble.

Couldn't stop you if we tried. :-D

Seriously, that's a good rational definition of terms. I would only add that each category is fungible, depending on the individual instrument. A top-of-the-line Fender Tele might not outperform a Chinese-made clone one-on-one, and a pro with good ears will know that.

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa


   
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(@niklas)
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I don't understand Gucci and Versace neither. A bag is a bag... and I think the men here agree with me on this one?

Sure. There's that...
I really hear a difference between the middle-segment and the low-end stuff. I was choosing between two bass players for my band. One had a cheap J&D-bass (guitarshops own knock-off brand) and the other a nice Warwick (not overly expensive though). The one with the Warwick sounded A LOT better. And no, it wasn't the player. I would say the guy with the J&D-bass is a bit better.

I choose the bassplayer with the Warwick. I can't take the J&D-guy seriously with the bass he has. It just doesn't sound good.

...and there's THAT. That is wrong. Shallow and wrong. I suggest, sir, that you are listening with your eyes, swayed by the pretty Warwick. Five or six gigs would pay for a better bass than the J&D... but that player won't get that chance.

I intend no offense, but I do think a reality check is in order.

No, I played with the J&D-guy for a year and a lot of gigs in my old band. And he never updated and that's why I don't take him seriously. He could afford it but wasted his money on god knows what. I didn't give you the whole story so I understood how it sounded.

Don't feel sorry for the J&D-guy. He has his own band already. I took the guy without a band.

I promise you I listened with my ears. In my old band he borrowed an american Fender P-bass in the end. The difference was night and day. Humming from a bass isn't nice.

"Talent is luck. The important thing in life is courage."


   
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 Crow
(@crow)
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I played with the J&D-guy for a year and a lot of gigs in my old band.

So it wasn't an issue then. Interesting.
And he never updated and that's why I don't take him seriously. He could afford it but wasted his money on god knows what.

That is his business. "Updating" means getting the latest & greatest gear... but why is it necessary? We've established that good setup of cheap gear can correct lots of audible faults. A plain old Precision Bass is not the latest & greatest, by any means, but it would be an upgrade, in your eyes, wouldn't it? Not much of an improvement over what was available the year I was born.

If there are other reasons you don't want that cat in your band, fine. If it's just based on skill as a player....

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa


   
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