Question for all you Computer Enthusiasts and IT People

Chris C it's server wide and server software glitches in the system.

So which server would that be?

Does the GN site software live on a computer owned and tended by an Owner/Administrator and link to an ISP of some sort? Or does the whole shooting match live on a larger commercial machine that also runs other sites from the same box, or what?

I know a reasonable amount about my own computers (which these days means just barely enough to keep them running and maintained) but once the wires leave the building I'm in Complete Ignorance Territory. :? One of the guys at the piano forum I belong to apparently runs his site from an old computer in his spare room, acting as a server. But I've heard that many sites just buy space and download/upload capability from a commercial provider on an ongoing basis. The responsibility for who makes sure that which bit is working might get a bit blurry then. But, as I say, I really know nothing about how it all links and works, or doesn't work. Any further enlightenment about how things are usually set up would be welcome.... :)

Chris

I don't want to spoil the game....let me know when you want the answer.

Knowing what the problem is and fixing it are two different things. Although I do believe that it should be taken care of very soon if not already.

The difference between today's efforts and efforts in the old days (20 years ago) us that it does too much and there are way too many pieces to the puzzle. If you've got a web-site sitting on an old PC in the closet, chances are really good that the only time the site goes out is when internet service goes out. It's many parts are left alone and only updated when absolutely needed. No other time. It's very nature of stability derives from it's ability to not be changed very often.

The typical set-up for a commercial web-site is pretty similar. Normally, two or more servers housing the application that you see and feel as you traverse the site from your couch. Hopefully a dedicated server for the database. Then some sort of hardware in front of it all protecting everything and sometimes routing everything. It's connected to normally 2 networks, each with it's own little doors into the systems. (The Internet, local content management) This is quite an expense, and can pretty much get you up-time in the high 90s.

Each of these peices contain many peices. A web application is no longer that. It's a series of smaller applications working together that have other series of applications working together. It's not as simple as saying that the web application went down. Each time you click the submit button or view a link, applications by the dozens, at least, start humming. Several protocols are invoked just for communication between components alone. It's not one application running in a clean isolation zone. That's where the next level of uptime comes in, along with an expense that you would choke on.

Every wonder why Google can be up 100% of the time? One of the new legendary server farms is Google's. If they upgrade, they can take a whole bank of servers down for upgrade, testing and release (or rollback) before joe shmoe ever hears of it. Then there's multiple databases handling sometimes multiple parts of the "application", along with multiple database servers spread out all over tarnation and all being backed up frequently and relpicated in real time. AND, each of those peices rely on the same kinds of software clusters that other applications rely on.

So, every single time that there's a slightest little required change to the smallest of components for the teeniest part of the "application", it affects unimaginable numbers other components. All of the versions have to line up with each other's compatability issues. "Why upgrade?", is another question. They have to. Retarded geniuses make a game out of hacking into systems. Hardware fails. Databases get bigger and corrupt, processors go down, routers get hosed, security holes appear, etc, etc. It's so simple when you small. When you're beyond small and tiny, then you gotta play by some of the big-boy rules. Then, what if playing by the big-boy rules doesn't cut it? Then they either have to grow, shrink, sell or close the doors. Either way, your experience changes and you no longer have a web site to consider. Maybe a year from now, GN gets bought or it's popularity grows immensly. It's no longer one of the great sites that are warm and cozy. It's now 4:00 AM and there's still 40 registered users viewing things. Imagine trying to get into e-friendships then? 'Oy!!!

Oh, and they have to, out of good ethical concious, keep the site clear of hackers. They have some of our personal information in their servers. Even things like names and email addresses have been promised to be taken care of in at least a minimal sense.

And one other thing while I'm on it. If GN, or any other site for that matter, has a period of time that it seems like it's always down, chances are that they had to make a change or something broke (hardware or software) that has resulted in either a recurring error or a long series of errors that have come about after doing the last update. These series of errors can orrucr until the system stabalizes, obviously....which also kind of defines it's stabalization.

So, encapsulated behind the mask that is the GN website is a complex series of components that all need supporting, tweeking and fixing to stay running and secure. We all know that GN doesn't create enough rev to support massive google-like server farms spreadout over many countries.

We also "know" the people who are behind the scenes and consider them friends. I imagine it must be quite insulting to them to go through countless hours of problem investigation/solving only to log on and find people doing even the most subtle complaining about how for hours they could not get on. In these times, try a little patience, consideration, or in the absense of either, silence.

We also "know" the people who are behind the scenes and consider them friends. I imagine it must be quite insulting to them to go through countless hours of problem investigation/solving only to log on and find people doing even the most subtle complaining about how for hours they could not get on. In these times, try a little patience, consideration, or in the absense of either, silence.

Hi Roy,

Thanks for taking the time to write all that out. :)

I hope that this does not sound like I'm trying to complain - subtly or otherwise - because I'm most certainly not. I really do want to try and learn some more about how it all works. After seeing another thread in this section where a number of members laid out their involvement in IT, it seemed like a reasonable place to ask. I really am hoping to get some explanations like the one you just wrote out. So thanks for that.

I mentioned a guy on another forum, with the server in his spare room. I was never able to access his site from here, and we tried for some days to work out why, without success. When I ran traces they got all the way to his ISP and then clagged out. The help guys at my ISP could see it, but couldn't say why I couldn't. None of their suggestions worked. And when I tried from friends' houses some could get there and some couldn't. I tried several computers at my house, with varying levels of protection using settings from safe to wide open and unprotected, but never did get to his site. Neither of us could ever figure out why, and he was keen to figure out the answer too, as it seemed to be limiting his possible audience. But I do like to learn when I can.

So any new knowledge is appreciated, as always. :)

Chris
EDIT: Must learn to type better too...

I don't want to spoil the game....let me know when you want the answer.

Knowing what the problem is and fixing it are two different things. Although I do believe that it should be taken care of very soon if not already.

Any information that you can supply would be great.

I live in a spot where very little can be guaranteed to work all the time (for instance, we had 30 power cuts last year - so I have my own generator as a backup). I also belong to several forums, for various other instruments that I'm trying to get some basic skills in, so there's always somewhere else to go and chat about music. It's neither unexpected, nor a big deal, when this site is unreachable.

But it is intriguing.....

Cheers,

Chris

And one other thing while I'm on it. If GN, or any other site for that matter, has a period of time that it seems like it's always down, chances are that they had to make a change or something broke (hardware or software) that has resulted in either a recurring error or a long series of errors that have come about after doing the last update. These series of errors can orrucr until the system stabalizes, obviously....which also kind of defines it's stabalization.

Hi again Roy,

I follow all the general reasoning in your post, but I'm still hoping to learn more about the detail, and the odd pattern of occurrence. I don't log on here at any particular time, and my frequency is also fairly random. But as far as I can tell, the times that I have been unable to connect haven't been universally shared by everybody else, or been especially long. There was a time when Vic reported being unable to connect for about 4 hours when I seemed to have seen a much shorter time off during the same period. And some members don't seem to have had the same problems. Of course, that's only a perception gained from a few posts in the News forum, and may be inaccurate anyway. But if it is random for frequency and length, and not everybody gets the same effect, then that's presumably quite different from some sort of direct crash at the site itself.

In the sort of engineering that I've done over the years a consistent fault that occurs, and then remains, is always easier to isolate when it comes to finding out where it is. That makes it easier to fix too. But I'm a mechanical engineer, and not well up in either electronics or current IT. But all forms of trouble-shooting and problem solving still intrigue me. This explains over 2000 posts from me here, many of which are either asking questions or trying to answer them. :)

Any more information, insights, opinions etc from any members will still be welcome.

Thanks,

Chris

Hi Chris,

As far as lack of pattern, that's a source of aingst. The first thing you look at when finding a problem is a pattern. When one does not exist, or seemingly exist, it does not help you.

Sometimes software bugs can be random, or at least seem that way. Patterns do not have to time based. They can be a specific action based, meaning that a specific action (or set of actions) cause it to go down. Weird stuff, like the equal to hopping on on foot while smoking on Cuban cigars after eating Thai food. The last bug I had was of that very nature.

As far as batches of problems after releases, imagine working on a car. It gets towed into you because it will not start. Until you start it, you do not know if the accelerating is working. Fix the battery only to discover a bad connection to the carbs, Fix the carbs, take it on a test drive only to discover the brakes are mushy. Fix them so it can be safely driven and you soon find out the transmission is slipping. Point is, that you may not even KNOW of a bug until an action has had the ability to take place.

I think I answered your questions. Let me know if I didn't. I'm not having one of my clearer mornings.

Oh, and some people do certainly complain when something is not functioning as designed and even put evil smilies like they are mad. I've seen it here on these very forums and it kind of angers me.

Thanks Roy. :)

I had one of those erratic problems this week too - but with one of our reverse cycle airconditioners. Two or three times last winter it failed to work, apparently related to colder nights. It looked like a temperature related pattern, but it wasn't possible to be sure. The lights would come on and the louvres opened, but the external compressor wouldn't start. The next day, when things warmed up a bit I'd turn the isolator switch off outside, it would reset, and off we'd go again. So it looked possible that it might be either some kind of sensor playing up, or perhaps something on the main circuit board.

A couple of weeks ago it did it again, but this time it wouldn't reset the next day, despite numerous attempts. So the following day I rang the makers and booked a service visit under warranty. They told me it would take 12 days before they could get here. Three days later, after trying each day, it finally restarted. :roll: A couple of days later and it failed again. This time I had found a website with some diagnostic procedures and error codes so I ran the checks and got a code. It then restarted successfully the next day, after I'd reset the isolator again. So I rang the makers and told them that their service person would probably be facing a machine that wouldn't fail on demand, but that I'd compiled some sort of anecdotal history of failures. They seemed to think that would be enough. Anyway, the tech fiddled around for a few minutes, consulted the oracle via his mobile phone, and said it was most likely the circuitboard on the compressor end. He then replaced it (quite a chunk of goods). He said they had just one instance where a somewhat similar thing had been caused by the compressor being faulty, but that he was pretty confident that he'd nailed it with the board. So far so good. :D

Cheers,

Chris

Sometimes software bugs can be random, or at least seem that way.

One that I read about (possibly apocryphal, possibly true) concerned a secretary who was having erratic problems with random characters appearing in the Word documents she was writing. The IT guy couldn't reproduce the fault, so he asked her to see if she could do it for him. She typed away for an age with no problem, so they both got a coffee and tried again. As she reached forward to put the coffee cup in her preferred spot, her ample frontage rested briefly on the keyboard and pressed a few keys....bingo... :)

Could be true.... This one definitely is. My friend who had the local computer shop for a few years was called out to a local business when their hard drive crashed and died. He was assured that there would be no problem as they did daily backups, which he could restore on a new drive for them. A succession of secretaries had passed on the instructions, which he was told had been carefully followed. He was therefore surprised when the backup file was tiny. Yes - they'd been carefully backing something up every day - but it contained only the icons on the desktop.... :shock:

And back in the day when I did know a small amount about computers, a company I was doing work for had the ultimate data loss - someone broke in and stole all the computers. In that case I'd been hammering the need for backups, so we were able to restore it all - from 5.25 inch floppies... :)

Chris

I notice that whenever the computer is waiting for a response from a.tribalfusion.com the page stalls.

Often re-loading is faster than waiting.

Note: I have my browser set not to accept cookies from a.tribalfusion.com

Notes

I mentioned a guy on another forum, with the server in his spare room. I was never able to access his site from here, and we tried for some days to work out why, without success. When I ran traces they got all the way to his ISP and then clagged out. The help guys at my ISP could see it, but couldn't say why I couldn't. None of their suggestions worked. And when I tried from friends' houses some could get there and some couldn't. I tried several computers at my house, with varying levels of protection using settings from safe to wide open and unprotected, but never did get to his site. Neither of us could ever figure out why, and he was keen to figure out the answer too, as it seemed to be limiting his possible audience. But I do like to learn when I can.

So any new knowledge is appreciated, as always. :)

Chris
EDIT: Must learn to type better too...
That could be due to a DNS issue. Is the site new by any chance? Sometimes DNS updates take time to propagate across different servers. (DNS is like a telephone directory, except it ties IP addresses with hostnames. Different ISPs maintain their own copies of DNS information and share any updates with other DNS servers. Sometimes it takes time for the changes to propagate. That could explain why it's accessible from some systems but not from others). But if the site is an old site then that's unlikely. Try accessing the site through the ip address. If you're still not able to access it then it could be something else. PM me if you don't want this discussed here anymore.

I notice that whenever the computer is waiting for a response from a.tribalfusion.com the page stalls.

Often re-loading is faster than waiting.

Note: I have my browser set not to accept cookies from a.tribalfusion.com

Notes
Reloading the page will very often be faster. The internet was set up to be a chaotic system, i.e. one without any central control point. It was originally the ARPANET, a military network, the idea was that if any one node got killed, the network would not be unduly affected. It also means that routing is a matter of luck. I used to have a piece of software that logged the route of any internet transmission from my system. Sometimes, sending an email to myself would go half way around the world, sometimes it would find a direct route, it all depended on the traffic on specific nodes, at any one time. If your page is hanging, it may be that the route that your data is taking is being held up by the traffic on a node. Reloading will reset the route and the originating node will try again - and the route could easily be very much more direct.

Yes, that is very true. However, don't be TOO impatient. There are many other things playing a factor. You could be hitting a site whose database is being hammered. In this case, 50 people doing a refresh every minute just make matters worse.

I notice that whenever the computer is waiting for a response from a.tribalfusion.com the page stalls.

Often re-loading is faster than waiting.

Note: I have my browser set not to accept cookies from a.tribalfusion.com

Notes
Reloading the page will very often be faster.

+2

Those of you who have not yet figured this out: Take note.