I there have been many discussions about perservering especially when we are talking about learning to play an instrument with most people saying that if you keep at it you will get good etc. I'm not sure I was ever a believer in that concept and know there is an article on MSN.
Who Says Quitters Never Win?
New research finds that people who give up on unattainable goals are physically and mentally healthier than ‘bulldogs' who persevere against all odds. The importance of knowing when to throw in the towel.
I'll have to read the whole article to see what it has to say. Might be interesting reading.
Just read the article basically there was a study done that found that people who perservered with impossible tasks they called them Bulldogs, were found to have many more health issues than people who gave up on daunting tasks.
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
Well, as one of the world's foremost proponents of positive thinking, let me just say this about that.
A very wise puppet once said "there is only do, or not do. There is no try."
On the surface, this attitude might seem like the very beginnings of the bulldog mentality that you describe. It isn't. It is merely saying this; when humans begin to think about failure, then that is generally exactly where they will arrive.
Think about this carefully. Let's say your boss at work gives you something to do that you KNOW that you will succeed fantastically at. Do you say, "ok, I'll try"? No, you say "sure, boss! When do you need that?"
If you say "I'll try", that means that you do not think you can do it. You have failed before you've even begun. This is the attitude that positive thinking seeks to avoid. It's a mindset thing, not a tool to overcome what it is not possible for you to do.
Heck, I want to fly in space. I have since I was a kid. Unfortunately, I am not the physical specimen that being an astronaut requires, and I've known that and been realistic about it for my whole life. It is only now that technology might allow flying a 50-year-old fat guy in to space, but unfortunately, I'm a little short of a million bucks. ;)
Well, as one of the world's foremost proponents of positive thinking, let me just say this about that.
A very wise puppet once said "there is only do, or not do. There is no try."...
Amen to that brother. BUT, I think you're both correct. It is foolish for a person to continue working towards an unachievable goal. It's like walking across a stream and trying to step on the same piece of water. There's a word for people that have that perspective on life. "Stooopid"
Having a good positive attitude is always the best approach. Yoda is very wise for a green puppet for sure. I coach a youth hockey team and THAT is the philosophy I teach in every practice. There is no try, do or do not.
BTW...I've been to space in the early 80's. :wink: The only thing I got from that experience was waking up on the rooftop of a barn covered in mud...The other was eating 2 bags of Doritos in one night and then having to pay the Porcelain Goddess afterwards. :shock:
Teamwork- A few harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction.
I'm a realist myself and don't do the positive thinking bit. When I'm asked to do something I'll say I'll try, because that's what I will do. It doesnt mean I'll get nervous or insecure, I just realise that you can't control or predict everything. So while I'll do everything I can I'll also make sure that if Fate strikes I have a backup plan ready to work around it. If I say I'll do it I make a promise that I cannot realistically guarantee to be able to keep. So I'll promise to do my best and that's the best I have to offer.
Anyway, music is different for me. I dont care anymore if I'll be really good or not, I like doing this no matter where I'll end up. If you dont then quit, music is about fun, not some lame mental perseverance test. Apart from that the MSN article talks about health, not about reaching goals. So the real question is: how much are you willing to do to get somewhere? Also the word 'unattainable' is rather ambigious: it's rarely that black and white. Highly unlikely goals exist but very, very few goals are 100% impossible from the start.
I like to shoot for the stars but I'll settle for the moon if that's the furthest I'll come.
It's true that very few goals are unattainable - few enough that most of us won't consider them (for example, I'm too old to set a goal of becoming an Eagle scout).
But I think the key, and what's really overlooked in a "bulldog" vs. "healthy & happy" comparison, is a cost/benefit analysis. If your goals are worth the price, they should be pursued. Intermediate "failures" along the way to achieving the goal are really just part of the price - tuition, if you will.
If your goals aren't worth the price, achieving them is a recipe for regret. They cost too much (in terms of time, money, relationships, whatever). The happiness that you gain by achieving them is overcome by the realization of what you've missed out on to get there. That's a reason to have different high goals - ones you're willing to invest the price for, not no goals or lower goals you'll "settle" for.
I can't imagine people with NO goals are happier, healthier, or better people because of their underachievements.
Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL
"Those who say they can and those who say they can't are both right" anon?
#4491....
I just thought the article was interesting whether you believe it or not. But personally I'm like Ignar, I think I'm arealist but soemtimes I think people see that as being a pessimist since I'm not all into the positive thinking thing, not that I disagree with it in theory I'm just not that type of person.
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
But I think the key, and what's really overlooked in a "bulldog" vs. "healthy & happy" comparison, is a cost/benefit analysis. If your goals are worth the price, they should be pursued.
Reminds me of the saying, "You can have almost anything you want but you can't have everything you want." You have to pick and choose using a cost/benefit analysis. If learning the guitar was going to be 3 times as difficult for any of us as it is now (i.e to get where you are would have taken 3 times as many practice hours) would you still be doing it? Would the realities of earning a living and having relationships (friends, family, etc.) have precluded it but for a very small few?
Pop music is about stealing pocket money from children. - Ian Anderson
in reference to guitar playing i think the issue is with the goal itself. if you're goal is to "get good" then when is that? how do you define "good?' that goal is not specific enough. i thought i'd be good when i could pick up the guitar and strum some chords that sosunded like a song, rather than having to learn the chords. learning the guitar is not unattainable for anyone with two hands, a guitar and a willingness to learn it. getting good is pretty subjective.
Yep, it's probably all about defining realistic goals. It's probably also about realizing that many goals are attained step-by-step over a long period. Not all efforts succumb well to instant gratification.
Well we all shine on--like the moon and the stars and the sun.
-- John Lennon
Long ago when my teacher taught me how to play Amazing Grace, I said that if I never learned anything else that'd make it all worthwhile. I can play that and a good bit else besides, so I'm happy. I don't expect to ever be "a great guitarist," but that's OK.
:D
"A cheerful heart is good medicine."
Everyone has seen the guy working some "meaningless" job, only to find out that he WAS some high powered business man. He seems so happy, and yet most feel sorry for him. Hah! Folks, he's the one feeling sorry for everyone else. Why? Simple. He's got it all figured out.
Roy
"I wonder if a composer ever intentionally composed a piece that was physically impossible to play and stuck it away to be found years later after his death, knowing it would forever drive perfectionist musicians crazy." - George Carlin
Hi,
I guess we've all heard the old saying "If at first you don't succeed, try, try , and try again."
But I once read an updated version which said "If at first you don't succeed, try again. Then quit - maybe you're not cut out for it!"
I tend to be a bit too 'bulldoggy', but I think the second version is the wiser one. :D The other name for "Bulldogs" is "Obsessives" and they're definitely the unhealthy ones. The best trick is knowing when it's more sensible to cut your losses, and put your efforts into something more worthwhile. Only a fool will obsessively persist past the point where it becomes obvious that the original goal can't be reached.
My wife often talks about this. She heads up the Strategic Planning and Evaluation section for one of our State Government departments (and she has two psychology degrees and over 30 years experience). So she is constantly in the middle of group processes where there are many opposing factions, different viewpoints and conflicting agendas all jostling for position. (Rather like a very large band practice.... :roll: ) They can't all win, no matter how positively they think or how 'Bulldoggy' they each might be.
She says you can always pick the dumb ones because they can't read the signs, and can end up losing all their points because they're not flexible enough or smart enough to understand which ground they could win and which they must concede in order to get an outcome that gives them the best they can realistically get. In poker terms, they can't pick "when to hold and when to fold". Simply throwing wave after wave of troops at an objective (as some World War I commanders did) often just results in a lot of dead men, and still failing. Sometimes that might mean "throwing in the towel", but it can also mean taking your towel elsewhere before it's completely wrecked...
Cheers,
Chris
Perhaps the way to look at it is - better to try and fail, then never try for fear of failure. I always set myself goals - I may not always reach them, but if I get at least part of the way there, I find I'll learn SOMETHING from the experience. My glass is always half-full, never half empty.
:D :D :D
Vic
"Sometimes the beauty of music can help us all find strength to deal with all the curves life can throw us." (D. Hodge.)
An all or nothing attitude seems to be the byproduct of capitolist societies.
And we can see it moving more and more towards these two poles .....
The vanishing of the 'middle class' here in America for instance.
Leaving only those well off, or those in poverty.
The 'Have's' and the 'Have Nots'.
Without reading the 'Bulldog' article - this seems to be what they are advocating:
All or nothing.
In western philosophy, there is 'The Golden Mean' -
The desireable middle between (those)two extremes of excess and of deficiency.
The Golden Mean defined Beauty.
And the three concomitants of Beauty are: Symmetry, Proportion, and Harmony.
The three basic virtues of the Eastern Philosophy of Taoism are:
Compassion, Moderation, and Humility (also translated as Kindness, simplicity, and modesty).
The first is basically brotherly love. And to do that, one must first love himeself. And to do that , one must first love nature.
The second is economy & restraint giving way to perfect efficiency through simplicity of desire.
The third is a phrase meaning - Not dare to be first in the world.
Meaning, to be first is to expose oneself to the destructive forces of the universe.
Remaining behind and embracing humility allows time for one to bear fruit.
Or - "The oxen is slow, but the earth is patient".
So yes, keep at it and you will get better.
Will you ever be as good as Eric Clapton or Paul Kossoff????
No.
You also need to accept you for who you are. (Brotherly love, remember? Not covet thy brother's talent and be envious. Love
yourself)
Don't set your goals to be as good as someone else.
They were given talents and made those talents work for them.
You were given talents - make them work for you.
And while I have oooodles of respect for trailblazers (like the early astronauts 8) )...
I have NO respect for quitters!
You also have to be willing to go around obstacles.
Like the fly trying to get out by throwing himself against a sealed window again and again....
The goal has changed then - It's no longer getting out of the house....
It has now become getting out of the house through the window at all costs.
At that point, you need to step back and re-examine what the goal has grown into, and
remember simplicity at that point.
Bruce Lee said - Be like water. FLEXIBLE.
You have to be able to take what the world throws your way.
I myself was a student of Aikido.
And believe in the dynamic sphere - Yin and Yang (In & Yo)....
Complimentary opposites rather than absolutes - Constant movement rather than absolute stasis.
Musically speaking, if you have made the decision to pick up an instrument, accept the fact that you will be a lifelong student of that instrument.
You will never stop learning.
And if you want to stay healthy, be not the Bulldog, or the quitter.
Follow your own path in your own time, and be happy!
Ken
* information gathered from various sources, including Wikipedia. :D
"The man who has begun to live more seriously within
begins to live more simply without"
-Ernest Hemingway
"A genuine individual is an outright nuisance in a factory"
-Orson Welles
