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technical or emotional?

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(@demoetc)
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Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 2167
 

You know, in thinking more along the lines of this thread, I have to say that there's also the 'emotion' of shred just to use terms already here.

Like there are times I'd love to be able to shred, just really tear it up because there are times when I 'feel' that way. Like when you're on a freeway and it's open and it's downhill, there's that little thing inside where you just step on the accelerator (or want to) because of that exhilaration you get. It's like a RrraaAAAAaaaahhhhh! sort of feeling, and there are times that that's appropriate for the mood of piece of music or the momentary live onstage sensations you get. Like in a painting; sometimes just a big, fat red streak will do it, and no blending or subtlety will suffice. It's there even in the masters, in symphonic/classical music, where a certain instrument or group of instruments will just totally rip for just a moment, or the pianist will be called on to do a glissando or punctuate (maybe more in jazz) with a tone-cluster. It's that same feeling when you purposefully insert a tritone or a minor 2nd into a line or a harmony.

But then again, an entire piece of gliss's or min 2nds or clusters would be a little hard for most people to take, and being overused, it would lose its impact pretty quickly.

A nice balance, I think, is still best. Knowing how to rip is great; knowing when to rip is best.


   
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 geoo
(@geoo)
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Joined: 19 years ago
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I am certain that this has already been brought up, but I wanted to express my opinion. Small disclaimer, I used to be a very "black & white" kind of guy but as I age, I feel more tendacity to see all the grey areas and allow people to have their own opinion.

I feel that when I am speaking, I am using all sorts of emotion in doing so. You are perceiving and emotion, although it may or may not be the one that I am trying to express. When playing an instrument, you are expressing that emotion via the instrument rather than your voice. Therefore, in my tiny part of the world, I believe you can and are displaying emotion through your music, through your guitar. People may agree or disagree but that is my belief.

Very deep topics here lately. LOL Too much for a small country boy like me.

Jim

“The hardest thing in life is to know which bridge to cross and which to burn” - David Russell (Scottish classical Guitarist. b.1942)


   
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(@gnease)
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Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 5038
 

I agree with Arjen.

"Emotion" is nothing more than the ability to apply solid techniques at appropriate times within the piece.

Just the right amount of vibratto on a note, just the right amount of attack, etc.

You have greatly understated that "nothing more" element. It seems a popular view that most people can be taught and practice their way to being excellent players. "Work hard and you will be very good." I disagree. A surprising number of players cannot be taught that simple little "nothing more" part beyond a certain point. Moreover, they do not know that they cannot be taught this past a certain point. A large part of the problem is that they -- and sometimes there instructors -- are unable to recognize the subtle differences in phrasing, space (silence maybe :wink: ), timing, dynamics, timbre and melody/harmony that differentiate a competent performance from an exceptional performance. Speculation based on years of observation: I believe that various people also recognize the many different musical dimensions to different degrees. Furthermore, some become attuned (neurally re-wired and perpective) to certain dimensions by experience, and others become exceptionally attuned to certain of these dimensions because of experience plus superior (for this purpose) combinations of physical, sensory and mental capabilities. Still others can become exceptional performers in several or even many of dimensions because they are exceptionally attuned, plus have the neural-muscular structure to actually produce these subtleties by voice or instrument. So why might different people be hearing different "emotion" among various pieces which clearly excel in different dimensions? Possibly because different people can actually perceive different levels of stublety in those different pieces. One person hears a shredder and says "Yeah, unbelieveably fast, but I hear no emotion." Another says "Yeah fast, but stirring and emotional." So maybe the latter listener heard something not even perceived by the first, such as tiny shifts in timing and dynamics or even progressional complexities that are just a blur to the first person. Some of that perceptual ability may be trained into the second listener; but then some of it may be the further result of an innate ability to perceive micro timing or micro-tonals or ...? Added to this, is of course are the simple differences in aesthetics -- most probably learned and made familiar to one through exposure (again, that neural re-wiring).

So ... could a truly gifted musician and programmer create a piece of SW (really a set of executed algorithms) to produce music that "touches" the emotions of listeners? I say yes. Every listener? No way. Not every listener will have the perceptive abilities that match the what's been put into the music and its performance. And not every listener will have the same aesthetic sense to which the music/performance will appeal.

-=tension & release=-


   
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(@demoetc)
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Joined: 21 years ago
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I am certain that this has already been brought up, but I wanted to express my opinion. Small disclaimer, I used to be a very "black & white" kind of guy but as I age, I feel more tendacity to see all the grey areas and allow people to have their own opinion.

I feel that when I am speaking, I am using all sorts of emotion in doing so. You are perceiving and emotion, although it may or may not be the one that I am trying to express. When playing an instrument, you are expressing that emotion via the instrument rather than your voice. Therefore, in my tiny part of the world, I believe you can and are displaying emotion through your music, through your guitar. People may agree or disagree but that is my belief.

Very deep topics here lately. LOL Too much for a small country boy like me.

Jim

Yah, I see your point. In a way that's what I was saying too; that even playing quickly can have its own 'emotion.' But what you're saying I think I also agree with - it's like each time you pick up the instrument, there is going to be some kind of emotion or feeling that's going to come out. It would be hard for it not to come out.

Yah I think that's true too.


   
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(@kingpatzer)
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Joined: 19 years ago
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I don't know how to explain it, it's just something you feel or you don't. When I hear BB doing that big wide vibrato of his I feel myself choking up, when I hear KW Sheppard pull those big bends and double stops in Leavin You Before I commit a Crime I can feel myself getting angry. I don't know how else to explain it

Sure, but that's you reacting to the music.

It doesn't mean that the performer experienced that emotion in order to create the sound.

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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 cnev
(@cnev)
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Wow I'm like geoo I'm just a simple city boy and this is getting to deep for me.

gnease I think I understand what you are saying and I think it's kinda of like what I said only deeper but maybe not.

Getting back to the original post though which was emotional playing vs technical, they are really comparing apples to oranges.

Emotional playing is all in the mind of the person hearing it. To the player he could be trying to convey sadness, to the listener he may be feeling anger it's a very subjective thing that can't really be defined well since everyone has a different opinion of what emotion is.

Technical on the other hand is very objective, can you play triplets at 200 BPM? Can you play a complex bassline while still playing a melody? Can you do two hand tapping? All those skills are very objective they can be measured, commenting on whether or not a player plays with emotion is just a subjective opinion in my mind. How can you tell me someone playing 16th notes at 300 BPM is not emotional...maybe I like that and it really revs me up.

Like I said in my earlier post I have yet to hear someone that shreds say they would never play a note like BB or SRV because it was too emotional, yet I've seen hundreds of negative posts on this site alone, about people who shred, lacking emotion in their playing.

"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!


   
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 geoo
(@geoo)
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they are really comparing apples to oranges.

That is exactly right.

Using my analogy of speaking. Technically, I move my mouth up and down, I form shapes with my lips, I move air through my vocal chords and all that together, in a very simplistic way, causes me to speak.

Before any of that happened my brain decided that it wanted to convey a message (Anger, sadness, discontent, etc) and formulated in an emotional manner what I was going to say. True, it didnt come from the "heart" (That thing pumps blood) but the emotional part of my brain decided what I wanted to convey. The emotional and mechanical (Technical) part worked together to get that message out.

You, the target of my emotion, may never get THAT particular message because you are interpreting it. Lots of room for error and your own mechanical and emotional parts are working to decipher it.

Its not an either or.. they working together.

That same with music. Someone formulates the musical message, uses their mechanical devices to get the message out there. Someone else mechanically recieves it and translates it and gets an emotional response.

:)

Jim

“The hardest thing in life is to know which bridge to cross and which to burn” - David Russell (Scottish classical Guitarist. b.1942)


   
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(@gnease)
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Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 5038
 

I don't know how to explain it, it's just something you feel or you don't. When I hear BB doing that big wide vibrato of his I feel myself choking up, when I hear KW Sheppard pull those big bends and double stops in Leavin You Before I commit a Crime I can feel myself getting angry. I don't know how else to explain it

Sure, but that's you reacting to the music.

It doesn't mean that the performer experienced that emotion in order to create the sound.

It is, however, very likely that a good performer knew exactly what (s)he was doing, and what reaction likely would be elicited in choosing to use a particular technique. One conceptually simple technique that incites emotional responses is mimicing the human voice. Most of us are trained to detect other's emotional states in their voices. Using an instrument to emulating the aspects of voice that betray emotions usually produces results. This is one of the reasons that "singing" vibrato as a technique, as well as, that d@mned wah-wah pedal are so popular.

-=tension & release=-


   
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 cnev
(@cnev)
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I now have a new goal for my guitar playing:

I want to shred with emotion!

"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!


   
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(@kingpatzer)
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Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2171
 

It doesn't mean that the performer experienced that emotion in order to create the sound.

It is, however, very likely that a good performer knew exactly what (s)he was doing, and what reaction likely would be elicited in choosing to use a particular technique.

Absolutely! But that's true of any good artist in any art form.

I've known a more than a few very happy actors who played Willie Loman.

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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(@scrogdog)
Estimable Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 95
 

Technical ability, at least in my case, is not the "real me" playing.

What technical ability does is ALLOW the real me to play.

See, if I can play without having to concentrate on whether or not what I am playing is "technically correct", then I have just had a great success.

Let me put it another way. I also write computer code. Does the fact that I may be well-versed in a particular language mean that I can write great software? No way. That ability comes from up here (taps forehead) - the knowledge of the language simply allows me to be creative.

That to me, is music. Letting it flow from you through the instrument. You don't think it... you feel it. In my opinion, learning technique simply sets the stage. Without emotion there is no music.


   
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(@chris-c)
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Sure, BB King does not have to be feeling "really really sad" every time he plays the blues - but he does need to know what sad is in order to fully recreate it convincingly - and I believe that he needs to have felt it for himself, not just learned the moves. And sometimes you can start to play and the music starts to bring some of those feelings back, and you can get a feedback loop going with your playing, and just get "into" it in a more emotionally involved way. At least I can - maybe some others never get that feeling?

Actually, I don't think that "really really sad" is in any way a good description of BB King's music, or the Blues in general. I see it more as gutsy responses to tough situations. But that's a digression. I take the point that was being made... :wink:

Here's what Accompanist, Broadcaster, Writer, Music Critic and Conductor Guy Noble has to say on the subject. He's talking about classic music, but I think he nails it for all of us who appreciate hearing some heart in our playing..
One night the violinist Pinchas Zukerman was playing a recital at the Festival Hall, accompanied by Marc Neikrug. Wonderful musician that Zukerman is, this concert just didn't take off. I wondered if it was me. Was I in bad mood? Did I have low blood sugar level or some other problems that was keeping me from enjoying the performance?

I can't remember now what he played in the program, except for the final piece, the violin Sonata in D by Prokofiev. The piece has four movements. The first three passed without incident. Beautiful playing, lovely tone, no one at home. Then suddenly, about twenty bars into the fourth movement Zukerman woke up.

I can't describe the change. I can't imagine how you could quantify it in scientific terms. But instead of sitting there thinking that the playing was beautiful, the tone was lovely, I was now listening - because he had someting to say. The change was remarkable. You could almost feel the entire audience shrug off their stupor and sit forward in their seats. The piece ended with a fantastic flourish and there were roars from the audience. Zukerman then proceeded to play a series of stunning encores, and when the concert ended, everyone went home happy.

But why did it take him so long to get in the mood? Who knows? He might have been unwell, or suffering from some private trauma. But it was a wonderful lesson in the tranformation of boring to music that was exciting.

As the phrase goes, now "his heart was in it..." :D

As Guy says, you can't "quantify it in scientific terms" - but if you are one of the lucky ones that can feel it - then it sure as heck is there, and it matters. The fact that a Tribesman from another country may have missed the difference is completely irrelevant. It means he missed it, not that it wasn't there.

A digression, but on the subject of response to music...

When I owned and ran a music shop I once met a fellow who came in with one of my customers. He was a Vet (as in animal doctor) if I remember rightly. He told me that he "didn't like music". I assumed he meant Classical, which is what I specialised in, so asked what type he did like. "No" he said "I don't like music at all. Not any music." :?

I was stunned. It was like he'd said he didn't really enjoy being able to see, or breathe or something. :shock: Now there was a guy with no emotional response to music. But fortunately he's something of a rarity. :P


   
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(@chris-c)
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I've known a more than a few very happy actors who played Willie Loman.

Yes, but I bet that at some time in their lives they've all suffered sadness and disappointment or whatever emotional elements they bring to playing Willie. The trick of a good actor is to be able to bring it back out of yourself without having it burn you too much. But intense actors can still feel deeply emotionally wrung out by a performance.

But, you might like this quote from the actor Sir Laurence Olivier. It would seem to nicely support what you are saying. :D

When asked the greatest secret of an actor's success, Sir Larry replied (with great gravity...)

"Sincerity. Sincerity." (suitable weighty pause....) "Once you can fake that you can achieve anything".

No doubt, there are a few musical equivalents of Sir Laurence out there too.
:wink:


   
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(@kingpatzer)
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Joined: 19 years ago
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No doubt, there are a few musical equivalents of Sir Laurence out there too.
Wink

Actually the best actor I've known has lived a remarkedly blessed life -- he's a trust fund baby who was able to dedicate all his time to what he loves and has never wanted for anything in his life.

While he works very hard at his craft, he is in fact one of the happiest people I've ever met.

And his favorite roles are those where he gets to play really morose miserable souls who suffer terribly.

He claims he's practicing in case he ever has to deal with anything bad in real life ;)

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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(@anonymous)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 8184
 

sounds like a real prick


   
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