versatile player vs singer/song writer

I don't think they are different types of people, I think they are at different stages. In my little theory there are three stages we all go through, hopefully:

1) We don't know what we're doing but we're trying all the same
2) We dive into theory and over-analyze everything.
3) The theory becomes part of our subconcious, it's there but we use it more naturally.

That's not to say one is objectively better then the others, but you cannot reach the latter stages without going first through the previous one. Guitar is a unique instrument in that learning the basic motoric skills is relatively easy while the basics of theory are pretty vague, compared with learning theory on a piano. That's why relatively more guitarists compared with any other instrument focus on skills rather then knowledge.

Am I the only one that finds it absolutey the coolest thing that Arjen's avatar has him sitting in the traditional Psychologist's position, on the couch, AND in a silhouette so that he is unseen. 8) If you take those facts and then read his last post, its as if he's got this whole Gestalt Psychology Theory on musical stages. Is it me? Does anyone else see this??? Hello, is this thing on???

You are the only one. :D That is pretty cool. Ignar Hillstrøm: Guitar Psychologist

So you're scared of scaled? How does it make you feel? I understand. That must be hard to handle. Hmmm hmm. etc etc

Heh, maybe I can make some money out of my psychology education after all!

I'd just blame it on his parents like every good psychologist would!!

You see Dr. Arjen, before my dad would put a beating on me, he'd make me play the Lydian Augmented scale in B#. Then, when I argued about the whole B# thing.....BAMMM! :shock:

Well, I don't know if I fall into Arjen's theory. I really don't care why one chord resolves to another, except that it does.

It's like Kentucky Fried Chicken that used to advertise 17 secret spices. I really didn't (and still don't) care what those 17 spices were, all I know is that I like their chicken.

Now, before you call me a caveman, I am not that way about everything, there are some subjects where I want to know the details and understand the whys.

That said, I am sure understanding theory is a big advantage. When I am trying to figure out a sound in my head I just try hit and miss. And I will keep trying until I find that sound. It would be nice to know some theory, maybe find that next chord easier. But I don't need to know why or care as long as I find that chord I want.

Theory is after the fact anyway. First people find that it sounds nice to go from one chord to another. They discover that by ear. Then it becomes theory.

While music in a sense is math, in the end what matters is what sounds good. If it sounds good, it is good. :wink:

"The therapist's love is his silence."

Wes: I think you fit in just fine. You're in the first group where you join people like Jimi Hendrix, BB King and SRV. In the third group you'll find people like Vai and Satriani. In the middle-group you don't really have famous people, it's an transition period from type one and type three (except maybe Malmsteen :lol: ) . Type one would be the singer/songrwiter and type three the versatile player group. The only difference between both highly aclaimed scientific theories ( :P ) is that the difference is less absolute: you might not be a master of theory but I'm sure you can play in every key and sit in with people just like type three people can sit down and play you a few songs without thinking about modes and polyrhytmic scat adlibs.

Arjen

I agree with you, I am not against knowledge, knowledge is good. And I have learned a few rules (theory) over the years that have been very helpful. I learned long ago that a song usually starts with the chord in which key it's in. So, if the first chord is C, the song is probably in C. There are exceptions like Hey Joey (Hendrix cover). The verses start in C, but the song has an E tonality (solo played in E Minor Pentatonic). Actually, Hey Joe is not in any key, each chord goes to it's 5th next, C, G, D, A, E. But the E is played longer at the end and dominates the song.

But anyway, I also learned that most songs are composed of the 3 Major and 3 Relative Minor chords. So if it is in C, then there is a real good chance the other chords will be a F, G, Am, Dm, Em (or E7). And this is a great rule, I have learned many songs using this easy technique. It really works.

But I don't ask why. I don't know why a Dsus4 wants to resolve back to a D Major, I just know that it does and that it sounds good, and that's good enough for me. I don't know why the flatted 5th sounds so dark, I just know that it does, and I will use it if I want that sound.

I dunno, I enjoy music, but I am more interested in the beauty of the sounds, I don't need to look at it in a scientific way. I would be the same way about art. I know if you mix blue and yellow you get green, but I don't care why. :D

Some things you just don't figure out until you've hoed a really long row.

"versatile player vs singer/song writer"? Hmmm? This is a tough nut to crack.

When I started playing I got better and better as I put in the time. But one day something crept up on me...I was getting worse and worse. Unnoticed by everyone...but not by me. Osteo in my fingers at times makes it seem like I have flippers instead of hands. You come up on all sorts of physical crap you wouldn't expect to meet up with...but one day you do.

My songwriting? I haven't even reached my peak.

So maybe the "choice" is left to The Fates??? No matter...at least you can write about it!

Cat

Hi,

I guess I come at this from a different angle. I'm not trying to choose between either of the two approaches suggested. My aims look more like this:

I have a friend who is a terrific musician and a storehouse of theory too. He recently retired as Head of Jazz Studies at the local Conservatorium. I asked him how he was enjoying his music now that he could forget about all the admin stuff and retire into the separate little studio he has at his house, and just enjoy himself. I was staggered when he told me that he hadn't touched his trumpet, and had been doing everything except music since retiring. :shock: He told me that he'd spent most of his life teaching and playing, and that now he wanted to explore other things, and forget all about music for a while. I guess I understand that, but it still seemed kind of sad. I felt like saying "Hey, do you mind if I borrow your talent for a while, if you're not using it now..."

So I just want to keep enjoying it all, and not get too fussed about exactly what rung I've reached on some imaginary ladder. I do agree with Cat though - that writing ability might outlast your fingers. I enjoy all kinds of writing, not necessarily musical, so I'll always try and keep that going. But even that doesn't come with any guarantee that time doesn't start mysteriously nicking some of your marbles, and rubbing the edge off the freshness of your imagination. So I guess it's back to enjoying the ride however possible, while I can still catch the horse now and then... :mrgreen:

Cheers,

Chris

Chris.....very poignant!!

the 'marbles' can often go from the most active of minds...my father died 2 yrs ago after an 8 yr battle against Alzheimers... so I know only too well

your soooo right about catching that horse my friend

the 'marbles' can often go from the most active of minds...my father died 2 yrs ago after an 8 yr battle against Alzheimers... so I know only too well

Sorry to hear that mate. It's very tough to watch. My wife's Mum died the same way some years back and it seemed so unfair. She was a lovely, generous hearted, full of life woman and Alzheimers stole a lot of good years from her. She died well before her time. It's another reason why I try and pack as much into life (and into enjoyment of music) while I can.

Chris