No Girls Allowed?

Interesting observation-Most of the girls I know who play guitar really don't know much about it. They just play what the TAB says to. The guy players I know for the most part are not like this-most of them can read chart and they'll figure something out by ear.

This is such a great thread, I've just read through and caught up. I have to say - and don't take this like it's defeatist - but part of the reason I never much enjoyed playing guitar, I think, was because of the particular age I was at the time. I was 11 - 16 or so, the latter years of which being when girls are sort-of almost becoming young adults, but boys are still kids. I got a lot of hell from boys my age because I didn't know about all the technical stuff that they just drank up, and I still find guys are way more into that. Somebody earlier said that he found women seem to prefer playing with others, as a social activity, and I would totally back that, knowing myself as I do. I like sitting in and practising and being satisfied with the progress I've made, but it only really starts to feel like living, breathing music and not just drills when I play with others.

So when I changed to bass, I felt that lots of the stigma about being a female guitarist was removed, allowing me to enjoy the actuality of learning and playing without feeling like I had to be a total gear expert. You compare me to my brother, who at 19 is eighteen months younger than me, and the way we discuss our playing is totally different. He has stacks of guitar magazines, reads up online about features and specs and product reviews and it's so typical of most of the male musicians I know. I make sure I know enough to get the best sound that I want, but I'm not above asking if I don't know how to get that sound. If someone implied to my brother that he didn't know as much as he thought he did, he'd be insulted. I'd just shrug, agree, and get on with playing.
Interesting observation-Most of the girls I know who play guitar really don't know much about it. They just play what the TAB says to. The guy players I know for the most part are not like this-most of them can read chart and they'll figure something out by ear.

I think this point runs on from the one above. I try my hardest to really get into and understand the music theory, not just read TAB and assume it's all correct, but if it comes to the opportunity to grab my stuff and play with some friends, and sit at home beating myself over the head with theory, I know what I'd choose. Once again comparing myself to male guitarists I know, they'd rather show up at practice with everything note-perfect, ready to assert their male dominance as Guitar God. If I make a mistake, whatever, I'm still learning. Again, the social aspect feels more appropriate to focus on than absolute unattainable perfection.

It's not a criticism either way, really; but I think many more girls and young women would be tempted to play guitar if it wasn't made to feel like some seventeen-year-old boy nerdfest. I think I'd have stuck with it. Had I taken it up later, I'm sure I would've, but the very age which is best for picking up an instrument is also the hardest for sticking to your guns (or axes!) under intense peer pressure.

As far as playing guitar as a form of expression goes, I really don't see how it's any different. Maybe women are more open with other women than men are, but there are still things that you don't feel you can say in words. But if girls don't feel like they're 'supposed' to play guitar, they'll find a different outlet for that emotion. Maybe I'm just creating a chicken-and-egg scenario here, I don't know, but that's the way it seems to me.

(Just be thankful we're not girl drummers, a friend of mine has never once been taken seriously and she's been drumming for over ten years...)

Grunge Sunset - um, I didn't say anything about starting an all-girl band. I actually hate the idea of all-girl bands for the sake of being an all-girl band as much as I would hate having to wear co-ordinated pink tutus at every gig. And I'm no ballerina. If there happened to be such a band with musicians I got on with and could vibe with, then great, but I'm more interested in how well I get on personally and musically with someone than whether we happen to share the same gender. I have a tendency to put all-girl rock band in a similar category to boy-band, girl-group, and teen-heartthrob, at least as far labels go. And to be honest, I've only ever been in one band where there has been another girl involved who wasn't simply a singer. Most of the bands I'm in are all guys except for me. But that wasn't a conscious decision - the conscious decision was wanting to play with people I could play well with.

Laz - yeah, I trained a bit with Liverpool Ladies and played for Tranmere Rovers a bit too, but I was a few years ahead of the trends and women's football wasn't really supported at all when I was doing those things. Then I got into guitar, and, well, you know the result. Fortunately there is a lot more opportunity and basic acceptance of girls playing footie nowadays. Again, when I played footie, I was the only girls in my local area who played, and the youth women's teams often struggled with numbers. Now, I see loads of young girls in my area wearing footie kits, caked in mud and carrying their boots and shin pads, so things have definitely started to change. Maybe music is going the same way - this thread could very quickly become redundant, oudated even. I did regret that UK women footie players lacked the funding of US and Swedish players when I was in my teens, but things are slowly changing on that front too (I remember being really shocked if women footie teams made the national papers - now, its considered de rigeur to be name the England women's footie cpt without adding her 'job description' afterwards - that's always a kewl milestone).

This topic kinda confirmed the suspicion I've always had: groups of people claiming to be discriminated are themselves more then eager to do exactly the same when given the chance. Stereotyping, extreme generalisations based on extremely limited experience and whatnot don't particularly make me feel sympathetic to anyone, to be brutally honest.
For what it's worth: in my personal experience some of the female musicians around me know the Fender catalogue by heart, others know the new (and pretty dissapointing IMHO) Prada collection word for word while others don't care about brands about nothing. Some only read tab, some read notation, some don't read at all. Some play lead, some rhythm. Some are arrogant, some are not. Some try to dominate the group, others are shy an introverted. I'm an arrogant bunghole myself but you can't blame my chromosomes for it.

Personally I don't accept being a dude as a valid excuse for showcasing 'male dominance' in a band, and if a girl is less confident in herself I won't accept that as an inherently 'girly trait' but I'll talk with her about it. Guess I'm strange.

Interesting read...

I'm an arrogant bunghole myself but you can't blame my chromosomes for it.

They've found chromosomes to blame lots of behavior on lately, is it that much of a stretch to think there's not an arrogant bunghole gene? :lol:

seriously tho, the whole "boys do this, and gurls do that" thing is a bunch of bull pucky imo.

seriously tho, the whole "boys do this, and gurls do that" thing is a bunch of bull pucky imo.

I'd like to believe that, but I have to disagree and say even if you can't totally pigeonhole everything into 'male' and 'female' (which would be ludicrous, anyway!) there do seem to be general patterns of behaviour. If you dismiss that, then you lose the benefit of looking at an issue from a male and a female perspective, which to my mind can be pretty interesting and fruitful.

Twisted: I can so easily see myself sitting as guest in an Oprah Episode. "My genes made me an bunghole". If it truly is biological maybe it's even an illness. "Sorry, can't come to work today, I'm a bunghole. Maybe next week." :lol:

Catski: I'm supposedly male but I'm not sure what you mean by the 'male perspective on music'. What exactly is it and how does it differ from a 'female perspective on music'?

i totally understand the "female " perspective thing, i've been a lesbian trapped in a males body for as long as i can remember.

sorry i had to go there (male thing you wouldn't understand)

i think you can have individual traits or perspective totally seperate from gender influence, but i could be mistaken.
it just seems to me that in my 49+ years i've run into about every version i can think of and i'm no longer surprised by one gender or the other straying from the "book" expectations of what is acceptable or expected by the majority.

i think it has more to do with how you are raised, and the environment of that upbringing that either gives you the strength to push the envelope, or be held back by it.

others know the new (and pretty dissapointing IMHO) Prada collection
The bright red and blue suits were pretty cool.

But likely wouldn't fit me. :mrgreen:

Catski: I'm supposedly male but I'm not sure what you mean by the 'male perspective on music'. What exactly is it and how does it differ from a 'female perspective on music'?

Sorry, I'm not being really clear here. I just meant that I think men and women are always going to look at things differently simply because part of how you define yourself is in terms of gender.
i think you can have individual traits or perspective totally seperate from gender influence, but i could be mistaken.
it just seems to me that in my 49+ years i've run into about every version i can think of and i'm no longer surprised by one gender or the other straying from the "book" expectations of what is acceptable or expected by the majority.

i think it has more to do with how you are raised, and the environment of that upbringing that either gives you the strength to push the envelope, or be held back by it.

I don't mean to imply that you don't get traits separate from the stereotypical, and I know upbringing has a fair amount to do with it, but what if you're unfortunate enough to have parents who strongly believe that there are 'girl things' and 'boy things'?

And maybe it comes with age too. I mean, I'm twenty, and I think if I'd started playing guitar very recently I'd have found it quite easy to shrug off criticism or weird reactions based on my gender, but at the age of 11 I definitely didn't. My (obviously clumsy!) point which I was trying to make in my first post was that maybe the guitar is sometimes seen as a 'male' instrument because lots of young girls get put off by that very stereotype. A self-fulfilling prophecy, perhaps. :)

Hey GrungeSunset

No, we're not an "All-Girl" band just for the sake of being an all girl band, that IS just the way things worked out. I was just trying to make the point that girls can be in a rock/metal band.

Actually, now we're in the process of selecting a new bassists (are other one moved out of state :P ) and the running is down between to guys...so...there.

Cya

b.t.w. I personally don't think it matters how good you are at playing guitar (or who's typically better, guys or girls) I think all that matters is that they're enjoying playing guitar

Hey GrungeSunset

No, we're not an "All-Girl" band just for the sake of being an all girl band, that IS just the way things worked out. I was just trying to make the point that girls can be in a rock/metal band.

Actually, now we're in the process of selecting a new bassists (are other one moved out of state :P ) and the running is down between to guys...so...there.

Cya

b.t.w. I personally don't think it matters how good you are at playing guitar (or who's typically better, guys or girls) I think all that matters is that they're enjoying playing guitar

I'm not accusing anyone, just your posts reminded me of that is all. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

I really hate the girl power stuff. Girl guitars, girl only bands, girl only stages and I've also seen contests only for female musicians just seem like a double standard to me. Worse still, I tend to take it as they are there because we need the extra help when we don't.

As someone who has played in predominately male bands (the lone female figure on the stage), personally, I would love to form an all girl band, just to do it, not to make a statement or anything, simply for the experience. The only problem I've had with it, though, is finding enough females of "a certain age" who play (or are willing to get up on stage, I know several female players, but they won't get on stage). So, I guess it's all in your personal perception of what an all girl band could/should be. To, me, it ought to be just about the same as playing in a predominately male band, but with fewer farts. :D

As someone who has played in predominately male bands (the lone female figure on the stage), personally, I would love to form an all girl band, just to do it, not to make a statement or anything, simply for the experience. The only problem I've had with it, though, is finding enough females of "a certain age" who play (or are willing to get up on stage, I know several female players, but they won't get on stage). So, I guess it's all in your personal perception of what an all girl band could/should be. To, me, it ought to be just about the same as playing in a predominately male band, but with fewer farts. :D

It would be an interesting experience. That being said, in order to make your ideal band a reality you'd have to exclude people based on gender and age which is no different than some guys in a garage band that don't want women in their band for whatever reason. We may have a reason to justify all girl as being different but the guy that doesn't want women in his band will too. He won't openly admit he's sexist, he won't even admit it to himself, he'll have some reason probably not unlike our own, reason of why saying no to a woman in a band is acceptable. Ultimately, it's going to be personal opinion of whether or not it is discrimination. But I don't think you can find one to be discrimination and one not to be.

It's one of the things that has perplexed me ever since I found out about feminism. I had, and still do have most guy friends so the concept is new to me. But you have women fight discrimination which I do believe happens to us and we do have to work harder but we discriminate too. We have all girl bands, recording contests just for women, girl guitars(aka Daisy Rock), battle of the bands were a band must have one female member, all girl online collabs and even a board on a guitar forum dedicated to women. Most of these only happen if you turn away guys because they are......well........guys. We do have to work harder but we have all this for help. Men on the other hand may not have society's disapproval but there are no all guy bands, no man guitars, no battle of the bands that require male members, no guy only online collabs and there is no board on this forum to discuss male issues.

Basically what my rambling comes down to is you have men turning women down for being women then you have women turning down men for being men. Both acts are the same, both the men and women will have justifications for their choices but they are not treated the same. The former isn't socially acceptable and the latter is accepted.......and I don't understand why.