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Direction of lessons... a switch

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(@minotaur)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 1089
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Since June when I started taking lessons again at another studio we've been working on tabbing out (or improving internet tabs) of songs. I've found that some songs I thought were going to be killers and too ambitious for me now are not difficult at all. I've learned some tricks, tips and techniques to play those songs. I'm also starting to piece together some musical relationships... movable barre chords that a section of a song can be played with; shuffles that whole songs are played with: Come Together, Get Back, Revolution (I saw that by watching Anthology... John played a blues shuffle for the rhythm). I saw he really did play Come Together and Get Back like this:
e|-------------------------------------------|
B|-------------------------------------------|
G|-------------------------------------------|
D|-------------------------------------------|
A|--12--12--14--14-----12--12--14--14--------|
E|--10--10--10--10-----10--10--10--10--------|

I discovered that these are all basically the same, only with variation in pitch (I believe that's what you'd call it):
e|-------------------------------------------|
B|-------------------------------------------|
G|-------------------------------------------|
D|-------------------------------------------|
A|--12--12--14--14-----12--12--14--14--------|
E|--10--10--10--10-----10--10--10--10--------|
D/A D/B
e|--------------------------------------------|
B|--------------------------------------------|
G|--------------------------------------------|
D|--------------------------------------------|
A|---7---7---9---9------7---7---9---9---------|
E|---5---5---5---5------5---5---5---5---------|
A/E A/F#

e--------------------------------------------------|
B--------------------------------------------------|
G--------------------------------------------------|
D--7--7--9--9--7--7--9--9--7--7--9--9--7--7--9--9--|
A--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--|
E--------------------------------------------------|
D/A D/B

e--------------------------------------------------|
B--------------------------------------------------|
G--------------------------------------------------|
D--------------------------------------------------|
A--7--7--9--9--7--7--9--9--7--7--9--9--7--7--9--9--|
E--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--5--|
A/E A/F#

e|--------------|--------------|--------------|--------------|
B|--------------|--------------|--------------|--------------|
G|--2--2--4--4--|--2--2--4--4--|--2--2--4--4--|--2--2--4--4--|
D|--0--0--0--0--|--0--0--0--0--|--0--0--0--0--|--0--0--0--0--|
A|--------------|--------------|--------------|--------------|
E|--------------|--------------|--------------|--------------|
D/A D/B

e|--------------|--------------|--------------|--------------|
B|--------------|--------------|--------------|--------------|
G|--------------|--------------|--------------|--------------|
D|--2--2--4--4--|--2--2--4--4--|--2--2--4--4--|--2--2--4--4--|
A|--0--0--0--0--|--0--0--0--0--|--0--0--0--0--|--0--0--0--0--|
E|--------------|--------------|--------------|--------------|
A/E A/F#

But now I thnk I'm going to tell my teacher that maybe we should leave tabbing and learning the songs for a while and focus on why you play something the way you do, and how you do it. For example, I know how to make the chords but I can't tell you why a dimished chord is dimished. I think a 7th chord has the 7th note of the scale. I can't tell you off the top of my head what notes make up C major or what the I IV V chords of C are.

So I think it's time to delve into at least the rudiments of theory. Good plan? Any other suggestions to bring to the table at lessons? In fact I think I'm going to print this out, with a few alterations and use it for telling my teacher where I want to go. He's amenable to doing whatever the student wants to do.

It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.


   
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(@minotaur)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 1089
Topic starter  

Instead of deleting the thread since I already had my lesson, just an update. It's a good plan. I told my teacher about the new direction and he nodded as if to say "yes, that's how we should go". He agreed I have enough of a stockpile of songs to work on and practice and perfect. So we're starting with the basics of chord formations and scales. I've got a homework assignment of listing out the triads that make up the chords in C maj. So I see us spending a good long time on this. There's a lot to memorize and a lot to work on.

It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.


   
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(@coolnama)
Prominent Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 590
 

:) Good luck, its not really that hard when you get into it, its fun you will see :D

I wanna be that guy that you wish you were ! ( i wish I were that guy)

You gotta set your sights high to get high!

Everyone is a teacher when you are looking to learn.

( wise stuff man! )

Its Kirby....


   
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(@joehempel)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 2415
 

Good luck, its not really that hard when you get into it, its fun you will see
+1 If I can figure this stuff out on my own, then you can figure it out with a teacher for sure. And once you start writing your own material (which is why I learned it) you'll find that it's alot of fun. Theory is a mixed bag of headach and ah-ha moments that balance out pretty well.

In Space, no one can hear me sing!


   
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(@chris-c)
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Posts: 3454
 

+1 to Joe's +1 :)

I have pretty much identical reasons to Joe for wanting to learn more about the art and craft of music.

For me, the study journey has been every bit as enjoyable and absorbing as the playing road, and I can't imagine one without the other.

Everything on the ‘theory' side that I've learned about the way music works has proved to be useful in a practical way when playing. It's made it not just richer, but in many respects easier as well.

The other thing that I found hugely beneficial was to stick at learning to read music. I now have a small pile of books that contain invaluable information about music theory, composition, arrangement, and even soloing and improvising - and they all assume that the reader knows standard musical notation. For a few minutes of effort per day over a few weeks you can acquire a skill that not only unlocks a wonderful treasury of scores, it gives you access to some great literature on the subject too. Certainly worth considering.

All the best with the studies. :note1: :note2: :note1:

Cheers,

Chris


   
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(@minotaur)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 1089
Topic starter  

:) Good luck, its not really that hard when you get into it, its fun you will see :D

Gracias. :) I think it's all the approach the teacher takes. He drilled me on something quick, I think it was a scale, and when I answered he said "are you suuuure?" with a smirk. I said "Oh wait, no I'm wrong. It's... " So, so far he made it fun and easy. And he admitted that there is a lot of memorization, no way around that.

I've got theory books, including Noteboat's, which is very good. But I need someone to bounce things off of. That's why it's sometimes hard to learn on your own. I won't retain what I read in a book if I don't use it or work on it with someone else, but I can use the books for reference and refreshing my memory.

I did my homework of constructing the triads. And yes I flubbed a couple, forgetting the #s. But when I checked them against a chart, I got them right.

It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.


   
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(@minotaur)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 1089
Topic starter  

Everything on the ‘theory' side that I've learned about the way music works has proved to be useful in a practical way when playing. It's made it not just richer, but in many respects easier as well.

Yes, that was my point and explanation to my teacher for now wanting to get into theory. I can form the chords, I can play them (well... :roll: ), but I don't know why I'm doing what I'm doing. It's just rote right now. I'm weak on the fretboard as far as the notes other than those within the first 5 frets. And as I said, I couldn't tell you all the notes that make up C maj other than it's root, 3rd and 5th.

I have created some "cheat sheets" in Word and Excel such as:


This one is the fretboard. It displays kind of small.


This is the major scale with the I IV V chords separated for easier reading.


The chords in C maj with their notes.
The other thing that I found hugely beneficial was to stick at learning to read music. I now have a small pile of books that contain invaluable information about music theory, composition, arrangement, and even soloing and improvising - and they all assume that the reader knows standard musical notation. For a few minutes of effort per day over a few weeks you can acquire a skill that not only unlocks a wonderful treasury of scores, it gives you access to some great literature on the subject too. Certainly worth considering.

All the best with the studies. :note1: :note2: :note1:

Cheers,

Chris

Thanks Chris. I want to become more proficient at reading standard notation. I can read the staff, but very slowly. Anything above high G or lower than middle C is alien to me. Forget the bass staff.

It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.


   
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(@joehempel)
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I want to become more proficient at reading standard notation. I can read the staff, but very slowly. Anything above high G or lower than middle C is alien to me. Forget the bass staff.

One thing that you may want to do is get a book of tab paper (about $3) and get a book that only has musical notation and transcribe it. It's been helping me alot in doing it. I'm nowhere near a sight reader, but I'm starting to recognize chords and patterns, and that's the key.

In Space, no one can hear me sing!


   
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(@minotaur)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 1089
Topic starter  

I want to become more proficient at reading standard notation. I can read the staff, but very slowly. Anything above high G or lower than middle C is alien to me. Forget the bass staff.

One thing that you may want to do is get a book of tab paper (about $3) and get a book that only has musical notation and transcribe it. It's been helping me alot in doing it. I'm nowhere near a sight reader, but I'm starting to recognize chords and patterns, and that's the key.

Aw heck, tab and staff paper can be had off the internet for free. Just make double sided copies. Though it's never a bad thing to buy any kind of music book. :D I'm definitely going for sight reading of standard notation to the lesson plan. Or rather, I know he will.

See, here's a little doo-dad I want to play just for fun (and when certain people called in-laws show up)... :lol:

http://www.sheetmusicdirect.us/search/productDetail.do?itemId=1000034338

It's the creepy original, and written for keyboard, so it's easy enough to play adjacent discordant notes. I've been trying to work it out for guitar, but I can't quite get it. Yet my teacher teased me with it by playing it. It's my self-assigned mission to figure it out. :wink:

It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.


   
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(@joehempel)
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I've been trying to work it out for guitar, but I can't quite get it. Yet my teacher teased me with it by playing it. It's my self-assigned mission to figure it out. :wink:

:lol: :lol: Good luck! I hope you can show him up!

In Space, no one can hear me sing!


   
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(@whoelse)
Estimable Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 110
 


The chords in C maj with their notes.

Hey Minotaur,
I really want to put together charts on my computer like you've done here with the C Maj chords. I want to use them to practice i.d.ing notes in chords and scales and things like that.

HOW"D YOU DO THAT?!?! Please tell me there's an accessible program or download that I can get. I can do it on paper, but I've been looking for a way to do it on computer and your's look great.

Thanks,
Dave "Who" Else


   
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(@minotaur)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 1089
Topic starter  


The chords in C maj with their notes.

Hey Minotaur,
I really want to put together charts on my computer like you've done here with the C Maj chords. I want to use them to practice i.d.ing notes in chords and scales and things like that.

HOW"D YOU DO THAT?!?! Please tell me there's an accessible program or download that I can get. I can do it on paper, but I've been looking for a way to do it on computer and your's look great.

Thanks,
Dave "Who" Else

I neglected to give credit where credit is due. I hope there's no violation. The site is http://jguitar.com/chordsearch You put in whatever chord you are looking for and charts like that in every voicing come up. You can have the notes, numbers or blank in the circles. I forgot to put the note names in the 5, E shape and A shape charts. No matter, the idea is to learn the notes on the fretboard without labels.

I simply do a right click copy and a paste into a Word doc. You may want to shrink the images slightly in Word. They are pictures, so you just click on it and make it smaller. I assume you know what I mean.

I've created a chart for all the "5 chords" on the 6th & 5th strings, that I use, up the fretboard. I did the same thing for all the movable shapes... E shape & A shape major & minor. I'm sure it's not complete, but the are what I am using. I even make up others for a song which has some chords I am not familiar with. I keep the sheets as references along with the song.

The tiny text to the right of a chord chart tells you the fret. I didn't put the #/b chords. I think they're easy enough to guess. :wink:

Here's the 5 chords. I've since updated this one to go all the way up to the octave at fret 12...

Here's the E shape major & minor...

Here's the A shape major & minor...

It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.


   
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(@joehempel)
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Great charts!!

In Space, no one can hear me sing!


   
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(@minotaur)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 1089
Topic starter  

Thanks. :)

They're helping me learn different voicings for the same chord of their type, with minimal movement around the fretboard. For example, I finally got a copy of Magic Mirror by Leon Russell...
MAGIC MIRROR - Leon Russell

Em Am7 D Am7
Standing by the highway, suitcase by my side
B7 Am7
No place I want to go, just thought I'd catch a ride

Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7

Em Em7 Am7
Many people look my way, and many pass me by
B7 Am7
In moments of reflection I wonder why

Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7

Em Em7 Am7
To the thieves I am a bandit, mothers think I'm a son
Am7 B7
To the preachers I'm a sinner, Lord I'm not the only one

Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7

Em Am7
To the sad ones I'm unhappy, to the losers I'm a fool
B7
To the students I'm a teacher, to the teachers I'm unschooled

Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7

Em Am7
To the hoboes I'm imprisoned by everything I own
B7 Am7
To the soldiers I'm just someone else who's trying to get home

Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7

Em Am7
The general sees a number, the politicians too
B7 Em7
To my friends I'm just an equal in this whirlpool

B7 Em7 Am7 B7 Em7
Magic Mirror won't you tell me please, do I find myself in anyone I see
B7 Em7 Am7 B7 Em7
Magic Mirror if we only could try to see ourselves as others would

Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7

Em Bm7 Em Am7
To policemen I'm suspicious, it's in the way I look

B7 Am7
I'm just another character to fingerprint and book

Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7

Em7 Am7
To the censor I'm pornography with no redeeming grace
B7 Am7
To the hooker I'm a customer without a face

Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7

Em Bm7 Em Em7 Am7
The sellers think I'm merchandise, they'll have me for a song

B7 Am7
The left ones think I'm right, the right ones think I'm wrong

Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7

Em Em7 Am7
Many people look my way, and many pass me by
B7 Am7
In my quiet reflection I wonder why

B7 Em7 Am7 B7 Em7
Magic Mirror won't you tell me please, do I find myself in anyone I see
B7 Em7 Am7 B7 Em7
Magic Mirror if we only could try to see ourselves as others would

Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7 Em Bm7

There are three sets of chords I can use. I am guessing they will all work to a degree with a slightly different sound. The point being that I would have gone nuts going back and forth if I didn't make an organized chart. I haven't played this yet, so I don't really know how it will shake out. But a lot of all this is trial and error, isn't it?

It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.


   
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 cnev
(@cnev)
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Well Frank if it works for you that's great. I know the method I am using is not anywhere near what I probably should be doing but I'm really caught up in learning a new song or two every week. I have a fairly narrow focus on what I want to accomplish at the moment and I know long tem (whatever that means) it may not be the best for me.

But I have a hard time paying my instructor for some of that stuff that I can just read from a book.

I could use the same argument for paying for the songs he tabs out which is in a way very expensive since we only get through one song a lesson at best, but the difference is that I find what ever he tabs out is almost always 95% accurate maybe better, were as internet tab is like 10% accurate maybe. with the chords and scale stuff that's standard so you don't really have to worry about finding incorrect chord charts although I'm sure they are out there.

"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!


   
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