Chords and theory

We also have articles here on Guitar Noise that go over this particular topic:

The Power of Three https://www.guitarnoise.com/lessons/the-power-of-three/

Building Additions (and Suspensions) https://www.guitarnoise.com/lessons/building-additions-and-suspensions/

Hope these help.

Peace

Read those now and a few others related, good stuff, I knew a lot of it but it was good to refresh......

One question David? Is that the standard way of building a diminished/augmented chord? By using the pattern of stacked thirds (major or minor)?

It's certainly an easy way to remember it. Most people will tell you the "standard" way to learn is simply to memorize the basic four chords:

Major = Root, 3rd, 5th

Minor = Root, b3rd, 5th

Augmented = Root, 3rd, #5th

Diminished = Root, b3rd, b5th

And usually that's how one will think about it in a pinch. That makes perfect sense because each part of the chord is defined by a degree of the major scales. And most things in music are described in terms of the major scale.

But if you want to know why they are that way, then the idea of stacking the four possible combinations of major thirds and minor thirds is a great tool since each possible stack represents one of the four basic types of chords:

Major = Root + major 3rd + minor 3rd

Minor = Root + minor 3rd + major 3rd

Augmented = Root + major 3rd + major 3rd

Diminished = Root + minor 3rd + minor 3rd

Essentially all your other chords (with the exception of suspended chords and "5" chords) are embellished versions of these four basic chords, so it gives you a good start.

When teaching, either method works. What's important to figure out is which method is this particular student likely to remember? And, not surprisingly, it varies from student to student.

Hope this helps.

Peace

I just realised something and it made me think of a question (though probably a stupid one) - why do we only count to 13?

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C

^ That appears to be 14 steps, I'm sure we count C as 8, so now I'm confused.

Because 15 is the same as 1, and then it all starts over again (17 would be the same as 3, 19 = 5 etc)

Well what I mean is look.....

C 1
D 2
E 3
F 4
G 5
A 6
B 7
C 8
D 9
E 10
F 11
G 12
A 13
B - ???????????

What happened to B? We reached B and we didn't use a number for it and started again at:
C 1

That's because you reached B with 7. After 13, all numbers are duplicates.

A question/curiosity on extended chords. Usually we say 9th chords (although sometimes it can read the "add2" or similar) and 11th chords (the 4th is for suspended) but many books study both 6th and 13th chords.

I guess the 13th chords also contain the previous tones and the 6th just the basic triad but I don't remember to see things like "add13".

Yep, extended chords (9ths, 11ths, 13ths) contain all the odd numbers below them - including a b7 unless it says 'maj' as part of the chord name, which indicates a natural 7.

'add' in a chord name means the numbers below aren't included.

The internet has given rise to a bunch of suspect naming conventions, especially for guitar. The only even number that needs to be used is 6 - a 6th chord is 1-3-5-6, and using 6 shows you that it's not an extended chord. It's also used in a 6/9 chord (1-3-5-6-9).

'4' doesn't need to be used. Even notations like 'sus4' are redundant - if you just write 'sus' it means the same thing.

'2' doesn't need to be used either, although it's pretty common on the internet, and I'm starting to see it in some jazz charts... where "C2" is being used as the equivalent of "Cadd9"

Thank you! I was guessing it. Perhaps one day we will start to see "add13", too...

And yes, it seemed I was including the 6th chords in the extended chords category. Thank for the clarification.

That's because you reached B with 7. After 13, all numbers are duplicates.

I know I'm being awkward, but we also reached the C at one and the D at 2 in my example but we still go onto say D as the 9th in that scale. I just found it totally odd, but I KNOW we don't go up to 14, I've never ever seen that.

Let's see if this helps. Start out with your scale (let's use C for convenience, if that's okay) and write the numbers 1 through 7 above and then 9 through 14 below, like this:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

8 9 10 11 12 13 14

Now, the C major chord is 1, 3 and 5. Aside from the guitarists' insistence of the "5" chord (otherwise known as a "power chord" - just the root and the fifth of a note, you never see the numbers "1" and "3" as part of a chord name. Also, since we won't ever use those notes (C, E and G) as additions to the basic chord, we can eliminate the "8," "10" and "12" from our chart
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

9 11 13 14

"2" and "4" we also don't use as a rule. When adding the D to a C chord, the convention is to call it "Cadd9" and not "C2" although you do see a lot of that these days, as Tom noted (also, for some reason one sees "2" chords a lot in modern praise and gospel music books these days - go figure) "4" is traditionally understood as being the substitute for "3" in a suspended chord. Likewise, "2" is also becoming more accepted as part of the suspended chord family even though technically it's not.

Anyway, allowing for convention, that takes care of all the numbers from 1 through 5.

"6" we need. C6 is C, E, G and A. But it is possible to add the A later, as you'll see, so we can't get rid of "13."

"7" we also need. Whether a dominant 7 or a major 7, that note (B for the maj7 and Bb for the dominant 7) is only going to be used once. So we can eliminate "14" from our chart as well:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

9 11 13
"9" can either be an "add" as mentioned before, or a full 9, which means that the D note is stacked on top of either the C7 or Cmaj7 to create either C9 (C, E, G, Bb, D) or Cmaj9 (C, E, G. B. D).

Likewise, you can technically add an "11" - C, E, G, F - but it's not too common. C11 (C, E, G, Bb, D, F) and Cmaj11 (C, E, G, B, D, F) are viable chords.

Finally, C13 would be C, E, G, Bb, D, F and A while Cmaj13 would be C, E, G, B, F, D and A.

And that takes care of all the numbers.

Yes, you can make arguments for, say, a chord with C, E, G, B and Bb - but the theorists would call this Cmaj7(#13), if I'm not mistaken. Tom will hopefully let me know if I'm wrong about that. He'd better!

Hope this helps. By the bye, I first saw this layout in one of Len Collins' Guitar Breakthrough videos. It does make thing a little easier visually for many students.

Peace

Thanks David, I am really feeling like I am getting my head around this - been doing ear training for intervals online too :P I am not there at all with that yet - I can do 1 3 5 and perfect octave because that is like a major chord arpeggio.

Gald to hear it. You've got a lot of good folks here at the GN Forums (Tom, Alan and more than I can possibly name!) that can help (and who enjoy doing so) so don't stop using the place as a resource!

Be chatting again soon.

Peace