Question about modes

So. The D-Dorian Scale uses the same notes as the C major scale, right? So, if I wanted to play a solo over a song in the key of C, I'd use the D Dorian, not the C Dorian? Which would mean that the D Dorian is in the key of C? Might you refer to it as the Dorian in the key of C?

Others will probably provide a more in-depth answer, but here's my take. I think you are looking at it the wrong way. C major has these notes: C D E F G A B, D Dorian has these notes: D E F G A B C. Same set of notes to be sure, but the big difference is that D Dorian has the note D as the tonal center, when you play the D it feels like coming home. In C major the note C is the tonal center, obviously.

Your backing track is in C major. That means it's tonal center is C. The tune will gravitate towards the note C as its "home". Most likely this will be enforced by using a chord progression like C F C G. If you start soloing in D Dorian on top of such a progression this will sound awkward, because your lead melody will want to gravitate towards the note D as it's tonal centre, whereas the backing track wants to go home to C. This will clash and in all likelihood it will not sound good. If you want to play in D Dorian you need a backing track that supports that mode, for example one that plays Dm / Em7 Am7.

Okay...so if I'm soloing over C, I could play C Mixylodian, C Dorian, C Phrygian, etc...

In which case it would also be wrong to say that the D Dorian is the Dorian in the key of C...

I guess I'm a little confused now, as the C Dorian has notes that are not part of the C major scale, which according to my limited knowledge of music theory suggests that they won't sound good over the C major scale.

For example, the C Dorian has A# and D#, which are not in C major.

(Yes, I know I don't get it. That's why I'm here :lol: )

Okay...so if I'm soloing over C, I could play C Mixylodian, C Dorian, C Phrygian, etc...

In which case it would also be wrong to say that the D Dorian is the Dorian in the key of C...

Nope. Almost nope, anyway

C Mixolydian is in the key of F, C Dorian is in the key of Bb, C Phrygian is in the key of Ab

D Dorian is in the key of C (the notes are D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D - note, no sharps or flats)

In the key of C you could play C Ionian (the major scale), D Dorian, E Phrygian (very Spanish), F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, or B Locrian. Each gives you a different pattern of whole and half steps between the notes and requires emphasis on a different root note.

Now, the Mixolydian mode in C is G Mixolydian and the notes are G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G - you'll note that it's the major scale of G with a flattened 7th. If you translate this back to a C Mixolydian you get the notes C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb, C which is almost the C Major scale and actually works ok over a chord sequence in C.

Mode theory is very misunderstood. There is also a hypo-mixolydian (and hypo- other modes) which start a 5th up from the normal modes using the same pattern, but I've no idea how to use them.

Best,

A :-)

Mode theory is very misunderstood.

Well, if there is anything I can do about it, it won't be me. :)

In the key of C you could play C Ionian (the major scale), D Dorian, E Phrygian (very Spanish), F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, or B Locrian.

Now, the Mixolydian mode in C is G Mixolydian and the notes are G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G...

Cool, that's what I thought originally, but it seems to contradict what zaiga said.

But if I understand you correctly, you're saying that the modes are NAMED according to their root note, but their KEY is based on the major scale that they share their notes with. And you'd generally play in a mode over a piece of music in the SAME KEY as the mode.

Right?

As an acoustic guitarist with an interest in Renaissance and medieval modal music, I seem to have a very different concept of modes from some of the rockers and jazzers here, and this seems like a good thread to try and bridge the gap in my understanding.

Phrases such as "D dorian is in the key of C" or "C mixolydian is in the key of F" don't sit easy with me. I guess I can see why they're said. They have the same notes.
C major = CDEFGAB and D dorian = DEFGABC - but so what? That's like saying a song in A minor (ABCDEFG) is really in the key of C major just because they share the same notes. Sure, A minor is called the relative minor of C - but that's fair enough. It shows that A minor is related to C but it doesn't imply that its IN C.

In "old mode" thinking, the dorian mode consisted of the notes DEFGABC, with D treated as the 'final' (a kind of embryo tonal centre). As the modern system of fully transposable major and minor keys with their newly introduced 'flat and sharp' key signatures, began to supplant the modes, surviving dorian mode melodies naturally assumed the identity of D minor, albeit with a raised sixth, (which wasn't always preserved). Greensleeves in D minor is an example of a song showing dorian mode origins with modern modifications. The fifth note is sometimes played as B natural, showing its dorian mode origins or B flat, conforming to the modern key system of D minor.
Anyway, it shows the dorian mode with its final/tonal centre of D naturally converts to D minor because they share the same tonal centre: D. It has nothing to do with C major, despite having the same notes.

But in 'new mode' thinking D dorian seems to have everything to do with C major according to posts in this thread and elsewhere. If you solo the D dorian mode notes over a song in the key of C, it will harmonise well - but how is that any different from just playing the notes of C major? They're all the same notes - and you're not treating them any differently. To my thinking that isn't really playing the dorian mode - it's just C major, maybe with more attention given to the note D but its still conforming to the harmony and tonality of C. I'm obviously missing something so I hope someone can enlighten me.

That's like saying a song in A minor (ABCDEFG) is really in the key of C major just because they share the same notes.

Almost there - A minor has the notes A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, and A Aeolian (mode) has the notes A, B, C, D, E, F, G. I'm not sure how much the A minor is due to modern thinking and the leading note principle but even right back to renaissance music (that I play too) the dominant in a minor key still requires the leading note - the dominant in (your example) Dm would be A Major, with the C# leading note.

I deliberately avoided reference to the Final and the Climax in my earlier post - causes information overload and it's not essential to the conversation right now.

D Dorian does indeed have a lot to do with C Major, but you'd emphasise the "D" as a tonal centre note when playing over chords of Dm. You could probably play it over chords of G too - D Dorian being D, E, F, G, A, B, C and G Mixolydian being G, A, B, C, D, E, F and the difference between the two being the position of the first semitone between the 2nd and 3rd elements or the 3rd and 4th elements.

Best,

A :-)

The confusion comes from two different dimensions in music, both of which we call 'key'.

First, there's tonality - the choice of notes. That's reflected in the key signature, and in that view, D Dorian is indeed in 'the key of C'... because the tonality, the notes used, is identical.

But scales have another dimension, modality. The modality of a scale is the relationship of each of its tones to the tonal center. In that view, D Dorian is in the key of D, because that's the tonal center. When we express modality, there are always two terms: keynote and structure - so D Dorian is in the key of D (keynote) Dorian (structure).

Over a backing in C major, you could use C Ionian (major), C Lydian, or C Mixolydian. Because the backing probably has a cadence, the Lydian and Mixolydian options may sound a little 'off', but they won't sound completely out of place - the third of the scale agrees with the chords. If you use C Dorian, Phrygian, etc. you'll have major conflicts between the structure of the scale and the structure of the chords - C Dorian has Eb and Bb; the Eb will clash with the I chord, and the Bb will clash with the V.

Thanks for your answers. Let me take some of your points.

Alan - I was referring to A minor the key - as determined by its key signature. It has G natural. G# from the harmonic form of its scale is simply a chromatic modification, introduced to beef up the cadence. Yes, a lot of Renaissance pieces have the raised 7th note on the third of the V chord, but just go back a little further and you'll find no such modifications (unless they've been added later). The point is that it's not necessary to have that raised 7th in order to define the key as A minor rather than the aeolian mode. If I write a short song now as AABCAFGAGA--- and emphasise the A as a tonal centre, then that song is definitely in the key of A minor. We can also say it's in the aeolian mode - but it's NOT in C major, despite the fact that its notes can all be found in the scale of C major. However, if you accompany me with strong backing chords in the key of C major, then surely it will lose its minor/aeolian identity and simply be heard as a harmony in the key of C major. My question then is "how is that different to soloing in C major?" Is it because of the focus on the note 'A' rather than on one of the chord notes of C major?

Which brings me to NoteBoat's point. I can't find any sources to back up your statement that the choice of notes alone (without reference to a tonal centre) defines the tonality of a piece of music. All sources I've found include the qualifying phrase "in relation to a tonal centre" e.g. The Encyclopedia Britannica defines tonality as "Organization of music around a single pitch; more specifically, the Western system of keys that grew out of the modal music of the Renaissance in the 17th century". According to your definition - the series of notes: ABCDEFG, has a tonality of C, right? But why? Why not A? If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the tonality of a series of notes is not necessarily the same as its tonal centre. Is my understanding correct?

As for your examples of using C lydian , C mixolydian, etc over a C chord. Yes - I agree with that. Those are definitely interesting uses of modes, and that conforms exactly with my understanding of them - but using D dorian over chords in the key of C major - what's that about? It's really just C major, however many times you play the D.

Its good to practice over just a pedal tone. You know if you have a keyboard you could just record it holding C for like a minute. Then use any of the modes like C Dorian, Phrygian, lydian whatever and it will be easy to get a modal sound and get ideas flowing.

And as a side note, noteboats one person on here you can be pretty sure knows exactly what hes talking about, id take his word for it. That whole thing about tonality and modality is important, you need to assign intervals to the "boxes" youve remembered to really use the modes well. i.e. Even though the box pattern always lines up you should hardly notice because major scale licks wont sound right.

Its good to practice over just a pedal tone. You know if you have a keyboard you could just record it holding C for like a minute. Then use any of the modes like C Dorian, Phrygian, lydian whatever and it will be easy to get a modal sound and get ideas flowing.
Yes - That's a normal modern use of modes and will give you some good modal ideas. It's not what my post is about, though.

And as a side note, noteboats one person on here you can be pretty sure knows exactly what hes talking about, id take his word for it. That whole thing about tonality and modality is important, you need to assign intervals to the "boxes" youve remembered to really use the modes well. i.e. Even though the box pattern always lines up you should hardly notice because major scale licks wont sound right.
Yes, I have some awareness of the depth and breadth of NoteBoat's musical knowledge, as he has of mine, through several online discussions over the past few months. However, regardless of his, or my, or anyone's knowledge on here, I'd like to advise you to never take anyone's word for anything related to music theory. You owe it to yourself to gain a deep understanding of the concepts involved, and then confirm the truth or otherwise of what you've been told. Tonality and modality are, as you say, important subjects, but unfortunately they are often poorly understood, as can be seen by the widely conflicting information that always accompanies such threads. One cause of misunderstanding is that different terms can mean different things to different people, depending on various factors such as the style of music and the culture associated with it. You have to rise above that in order to see beyond it.

Im not just taking his word for it, you can have the exact same lead (note for note, same timing) sound completely different if you change the rhythm track. I think I know where it is if your intrested, it was a very powerful example for me.

And I kind of thought you were the same guy who asked the original question when I wrote that first part so keep that in mind haha.

I don't know where you read the whole thing about "new mode thinking" but as far as I can tell that part is pretty much dead wrong. The "old mode thinking" you talk about is what I understood to be correct. Using the F lydian with F as the tonal center and trying to avoid a G-C cadence.

Fretsource is right, I use the term 'tonality' differently from most sources, at least in the context of modes. Here's why... I start with Piston's Harmony:

"Tonality is the organized relationship of tones in music.... Modality refers to the choice of tones between which this relationship exists. Tonality is synonymous with key, modality with scale."

Next we can turn to the standard reference dictionaries... both the Harvard Dictionary of Music and Groves limit tonality to Western (Harvard) or European (Groves) music from 1600 on - and Groves says it's between 1600-1910.

It's pretty clear to me, at least, that tonal music didn't vanish in 1910 (or start in 1600), and that non-Western or non-European music can be tonal. Both Groves and Harvard are defining an umbrella that includes Baroque, Classical, and Romantic music; Groves wants to exclude 20th century, Harvard doesn't weigh in on an end date.

But musicians talk about 'tonality' all the time in contexts that aren't bounded by history. If what we're really defining is simply music that has a tonal center... well, so does Gregorian chant!

Purists argue that chant has 'tonicity', while sonatas have 'tonal centers'. I don't see a logical difference. In practice, pre-1600 music is more apt to have a single tonal center - there is a clear melodic cadence, and the music stays in one 'key' (it had to, because they didn't have accidentals). On the other hand, a "Sonata in G" is likely to have a development section with C sharps galore - it modulates to D, and back to G again.

So why the need for 'tonality' at all, when tonicity will do, and we can include the 'tonicization' of D in a sonata?

In everything I've read, 'tonal' music is used to differentiate the split from 'modal' music, and is followed later by the 'atonal' music of
Schoenberg and others. Which brings me back to topic, and why I use the term 'tonality' so broadly in teaching and discussing modes...

Thanks to Glareanus, we relate the church modes to the major and minor scales. This gives us one structure that covers all the modes - and that's the key signature. Going back to Piston, tonality is synonymous with key - and each of the modes can fit under a single key signature. Therefore, when discussing modes, I present tonality as 'a set of tones' and modality as 'the arrangement of the set'.

Most students who are interested in using modes have learned "D Dorian is the C scale starting from D", and I need a way to say "yes, that's right - they have the same tones" in a way that still allows me to say "but it's not a C scale". Using the C scale as 'tonality' and the D Dorian as 'modality' allows me to explain the difference.

The problem with learning modes in relation to a major scale is that the reference major scale's tonality over-rides the modality for most students. They think they're in D Dorian, but they're actually playing in C major - because they're relating the mode to the major scale, and major tonality (and therefore the major scale's tonal center) is so well ingrained in us. Since this tonality, and it's problems, is almost a given in a mode-teaching situation... I embrace it - by broadening the definition of 'tonality' to be "anything that uses these notes".

When discussing music history, atonal music, or other non-mode topics, I don't use so broad a definition for 'tonality' :)

Hahaha. Pheeeeeeeew. Over my head.

It seems my initial thoughts regarding modes were wrong, but for reasons I didn't even know at the time. However, I think I'm at least developing a healthy understanding of what I don't know. Specifically, I have a lot to learn about the musical feel of a mode.

What I understand now, though, is this. I can play the NOTES of the D Dorian scale (perhaps using the scale pattern of the D Dorian with the root on the sixth string) over a backing track in C, but it doesn't necessarily make it a D Dorian solo. Playing a mode is about more than the notes of the mode, the sequence is important, too.

But there's nothing wrong with me learning the D Dorian scale, and playing solos using the scale pattern, and leaving the understanding of the feeling of the mode for later, then, is there?

I think perhaps that was what Alan was getting at. Kind of like teaching physics to junior schoolers. Electrons don't really orbit the nucleus of the atom, but for where they're at it's a close enough approximation. Playing random notes in the D Dorian over a backing track in C isn't REALLY correct, but it's close enough for where I'm at. :lol:

Actually, I probably need to look into using scales properly sometime soon. :)

Sounds like you should learn to use the major scale first, 90% of what you hear is major scale and it is very intuitive to write melodies from it. Once you know how to do major scale melody and harmony, you see that modes aren't really much different, you just move around 1 or 2 notes and take that into consideration.