Scale question

Got it....thanks.

The b7 is raised to 7, which makes a step and a half between b6 and 7.

Got it....thanks.

The b7 is raised to 7, which makes a step and a half between b6 and 7.
That's really the wrong way to look at it. The base, from which the harmonic minor comes, is the major scale, not the relative minor.

Got it....thanks.

The b7 is raised to 7, which makes a step and a half between b6 and 7.
That's really the wrong way to look at it. The base, from which the harmonic minor comes, is the major scale, not the relative minor.

Not sure if I understand....I thought the harmonic minor comes from a minor scale....1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8(aeolian), 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 (harmonic minor)....this is wrong?

All scales stem from the major scale and are variants of it.

When you come to the melodic minor, you have only a b3, so which minor does it come from? Is it the relative (natural), where you now have to sharp not only the 7 but also the 6 (that you flatted to get the relative minor, in the first place). Or does it come from the harmonic minor, where you'd only have to sharp the 6 (after having taken the relative minor, with b3, b6, b7 and sharped the 7, to get the harmonic)?

That's ascending, though, and descending you have to use the relative (natural) minor.

It's easier, all round, to see them as variants of the major scale.
Melodic (up) b3
Harmonic b3, b6
Relative (natural) & melodic (down) b3, b6, b7

Not sure if I understand....I thought the harmonic minor comes from a minor scale....1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8(aeolian), 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 (harmonic minor)....this is wrong?

Yes, that's right, historically it did come from the natural minor, which came from the aeolian mode. But if you say the natural minor has a b3, then you are quoting it in relation to the major scale. The natural minor actually is 12345678 of the natural minor scale - which is a pretty useless piece of information - so as Greybeard says: It's easier, all round, to see them as variants of the major scale.

I think we're agreed then Sport. I also think of the harmonic minor's seventh degree as being raised from the natural minor's seventh. But when I put it into language, especially written language, I relate to the major scale. So I write 7 and not #7 - (which was something that was confusing the OP).

Oh, when you're playing I suppose you think "I have to UNFLAT the 7th to go from minor to harmonic minor." :lol: I know what you guys are talking about. But let a guy say that he sharpens the 7th once in awhile because there is no such thing as the word UNFLAT in music.

1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7

See I sharpened the 7th, I didn't unflat it. Come on, tell me that's not how you really think of it when playing?

Honestly, it's not how I think of it.

I think in terms of the major scale, and relate all scales and modes back to the major.

So the harmonic minor has a 7th, the natural minor has a b7.

On measure 1 maybe I'm playing the natural minor, then measure 2 I'm playing the harmonic minor I don't think in terms of what has changed. Rather I merely am playing this scale at this time, and it has these notes in relation to hte major scale.

But more often than not I'm not just "playing a scale," most often I'm finding doing something in the scale, or re-phrasing the melody using the scale tones, doing arpeggios, or in some way using the scale as the base notes for some melodic expression.

So, to me, I don't think about changing scales, but about this scale, in this measure (or part of a measure), and what melodic idea I'll use the scale for.

Not sure if I understand....I thought the harmonic minor comes from a minor scale....1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8(aeolian), 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 (harmonic minor)....this is wrong?

Yes, that's right, historically it did come from the natural minor, which came from the aeolian mode. But if you say the natural minor has a b3, then you are quoting it in relation to the major scale. The natural minor actually is 12345678 of the natural minor scale - which is a pretty useless piece of information - so as Greybeard says: It's easier, all round, to see them as variants of the major scale.

In relation to the major scale...WWHWWWH (major scale)
HWWHWWW (natural minor scale) same notes as major scale

So, Fretsource, the natural minor your talking about is not in relation to the major, but parallel?

So, taking the C major scale...

C D E F G A B C

The A relative natural minor of C is:

A B C D E F G A

The Harmonic minor scale for the A relative natural minor is:

A B Cb D E Fb G A

And the parellel C aeolian (minor) scale is

C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

And the parallel C Harmonic minor scale would be:

C D Eb F G Ab B C

Is this correct or am I just confused?

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So, Fretsource, the natural minor your talking about is not in relation to the major, but parallel?
Ah - I can see the use of the word 'relate' was unfortunate, as it seems to have suggested the RELATIVE major. Sorry. Yes - I meant relative to the parallel major, not the relative major.

If I'm playing a piece in A minor, I'm not thinking at all about the relative major key, C major - (except as a possible key that the music might modulate to).

For example, when I'm sight reading a piece of music in A minor I'm thinking in terms of the natural minor - and expecting to see raised sevenths courtesy of the harmonic minor scale and maybe a few raised sixths too, if the melodic minor has anything to do with it.
But when I write about those scale degrees - I'm 'relating' to the parallel major , A major. That's why I say 7 instead of #7.
I couldn't understand that list of scales you wrote. They are all fine except the harmonic minor. I see you've just taken the harmonic minor and further flattened the 3rd, 6th, & 7th. I've no idea why you did that.

Yeah...not a bad thing to know....but, proably not going to be able to accomplish in a session or two. Fact is, I have been working on 1, 2 and 3 since the first time Kingpatzer mentioned it in a post a few months back....I think I can handle 1 and 3 (I mau have to think about it a little)...but, number 2 is still in the works.

Thanks for the clarification everyone...I have found this to be a most stimulating thread....however, I may still be a bit confused.

Are these not correct???

C major scale...

C D E F G A B C

The A relative natural minor of C is:

A B C D E F G A (same notes as C major)

The Harmonic minor scale for the A relative natural minor is:

A B Cb D E Fb G A (based on the relative natural minor of C....which is A minor)

And the parellel C aeolian (minor) scale is

C D Eb F G Ab Bb C (just what it says...parellel...starts with C, but has different notes)

And the parallel C Harmonic minor scale would be: (based on the parellel C aeolian)

C D Eb F G Ab B C

My head hurts! :lol:

Are these not correct???

C major scale...

C D E F G A B C

The A relative natural minor of C is:

A B C D E F G A (same notes as C major)

The Harmonic minor scale for the A relative natural minor is:

A B Cb D E Fb G A (based on the relative natural minor of C....which is A minor)

And the parellel C aeolian (minor) scale is

C D Eb F G Ab Bb C (just what it says...parellel...starts with C, but has different notes)

And the parallel C Harmonic minor scale would be: (based on the parellel C aeolian)

C D Eb F G Ab B C

Yes - as I said, all correct except the harmonic minor which is ABCDEFG#A. Where are you getting Cb Fb and G from?

As I said...I may still be a bit confused....

I'm getting it based of the scale degrees of the harmonic minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 8

I'm getting it based of the scale degrees of the harmonic minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 8

I think the thing here is that you're using the A natural minor as your starting point for your calculations. The scale degrees of the harmonic minor are based on starting with the major scale (most scales are written out in relation to their major scale). In this case you'd need to start with the A major scale and you'd be set.

You logic is fine. You simply started in the wrong place.

Hope this helps.

Peace

Yes, that's right, historically it did come from the natural minor, which came from the aeolian mode.

Not quite...

The early church music came in eight modes, four of which survive today: dorian, phrygian, lydian and mixolydian. The other four were those same modes (that is, the same set of tones, and the same tonal center), but extended in different ways. These had the same names, but with a 'hypo-' prefix, as in Hypodorian etc.

The differences can only be seen with respect to range... Dorian mode had D as a tonal center, with a melody spanning D-D; Hypodorian had the span from A-A, but still retained D as the tonal center. So it wasn't the same as the Aeolian mode, which has A as the tonal center. So while early church tunes might have had a C-C range, it wasn't using a major scale - it was a Hypolydian, and a song with the range D-D could be seen as either Dorian or Hypomixolydian depending on the tonal center. Range distinctions disappeared as new instruments appeared with a span greater than one octave. [Note: my examples use only notes from the C scale... because these scales preceeded the use of accidentals]

The natural minor scale came about from secular music, as did the major scale*. They're not at all related to the church modes. So now we had four basic tonal centers from church scales, and two more from the secular scales.

Along comes Glareanus, an early 16th century theorist, who noticed that the intervals in each of these six scales were the same - if you ran each one through two octaves, you'd find the pattern WWHWWWH. In order to fit the two 'new' scales in with the traditional church modes, he gave new names to the scales... Ionian for major, Aeolian for minor. So the natural minor scale preceeded the Aeolian mode, and the Aeolian mode was never a church mode. (Glareanus' theory also posited the existence of the Locrian mode - the first 'theory based' scale, which he rejected as useless.)

Later on, the harmonic minor scale developed to give an authentic cadence to minor melodies; still later, the melodic minor developed to eliminate the step-and-a-half interval, which troubled singers. Since merely raising the sixth resulted in a scale with an upper tetrachord identical to the major scale, composers balked - it didn't sound minor enough. The solution was to use nine tones - raising the sixth and seventh going up, dropping them back down on descent.

*-this is what I was taught in school, that the major and minor scales came from the music of the minstrels and troubadours from the 12th-14th centuries. New research suggests the major scale is actually older than any of the others, dating to ancient Syria.