Why is the aeolian mode called the relative minor?

you'll find that if you're playing a tune in the key of C major, and it changes key, obvious/popular/natural keys to change to include A minor, which is the relative minor for that reason, I believe (at least, that's how I learned it). other related keys are G major and F major, the V and IV chords in the key of C major respectively. this might get a better response in the music theory section, but I'm sure someone will be along to give a more robust explan shortly.

hth

S

Ok, here's the scoop.

We started with four "modes": Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, and Mixolydian. These were the tonal sets used in Gregorian chant.

At the same time, we had two "scales": major and minor. These were the tonal sets used in secular music - folk songs, the stuff of the minstrels and troubadours.

Along comes a Swiss music theorist (Heinrich Glarens) in the 1500s... he realized that the intervals were exactly the same, just in a different sequence. If you start a major scale from the second note, you get a Dorian mode, and so on.

Since the four modes already had Greek names, he decided to give Greek names to the scales: Ionian and Aeolian. (He named the Locrian too, but considered it musically useless)

So you're not missing anything. We call the Aeolian mode the natural minor scale, because that's what it is. Oh, and "relative minor" is just a minor key that shares the same key signature as a major scale - it could be the Aeolian mode, it could be the harmonic or melodic minor, or any of the less-frequently-used minor scales with the same keynote.

Ok, here's the scoop.

We started with four "modes": Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, and Mixolydian. These were the tonal sets used in Gregorian chant.

At the same time, we had two "scales": major and minor. These were the tonal sets used in secular music - folk songs, the stuff of the minstrels and troubadours.

Along comes a Swiss music theorist (Heinrich Glarens) in the 1500s... he realized that the intervals were exactly the same, just in a different sequence. If you start a major scale from the second note, you get a Dorian mode, and so on.

Since the four modes already had Greek names, he decided to give Greek names to the scales: Ionian and Aeolian. (He named the Locrian too, but considered it musically useless)

So you're not missing anything. We call the Aeolian mode the natural minor scale, because that's what it is. Oh, and "relative minor" is just a minor key that shares the same key signature as a major scale - it could be the Aeolian mode, it could be the harmonic or melodic minor, or any of the less-frequently-used minor scales with the same keynote.
Thanks, thats helps, but why can't the dorian mode be called the relative minor, it shares the same notes too? That's the part I think I'm missing. Please bear with me, I'm new to music theory and I tend to over analysis. :D

Thanks, thats helps, but why can't the dorian mode be called the relative minor, it shares the same notes too?

Because shortly after the new seven mode set was laid out, the modal system began to disintegrate and was abandoned by composers who found most of the modes increasingly unsuitable at expressing the latest developments in harmony and tonality (keys). So the modal system was gradually abandoned and replaced with the new and improved MAJOR-MINOR system, using just two of the old modes that were suitable - the Ionian and (modified) Aeolian. Those old names were dropped though, belonging to a bygone age (until their rebirth in Jazz). For centuries the names had been just Major and Minor, (as they still are for most musicians) - and if they happened to use the same notes then it was 'relative' major/minor.

A few basics might help explain this better. First off the harmony (or chord) built on the 6th degree of a Major Scale is a minor chord ; thus for C Major it would be A minor. Experienced guitar players know that progression from C Major to Am is "Extremely Strong" ; similarily from G Major to E Minor ; similarily from the root chord to the harmony built on the 6th degree of any Major Scale is an extremely strong progression or chord change. An Aeolian modal sound can be thought of as a "mood" because all the other chords revolve around this minor chord - in our case A minor against a C chord or C note. When you play the notes " A B C D E F G A " there are no sharps or flats so it is "Natural" in the key in the key of C ; but whats also important is the relationship of this "NATURAL" minor scale to the Harmonic minor scale but I won't go into that. To a jazz player the key of C Major is something that is totally foreign to him - he has no idea what you're talking about ; to him he's playing in IONIAN mode ; (of course he'll know what a Major scale is) but the reality is is that to him its just another mode. There are many scales worth learning for aspiring guitar players however the three most important are the Major, Harmonic Minor, and the Melodic Minor. If you look at the Harmonic minor and Melodic minor scales they have a G sharp note which tends to really accentuate a minorish key sound and really "key stamps" the song as being in a minor key. To be percise its not really enough to say you're playing in the key of C Major its better to say I'm playing in C IONIAN or maybe we're playing in A AEOLIAN which is basically the key of C Major however because the song will typically revolve around an A minor chord it has a minor modal sound . . . its important to realize "there is a difference between a song in a minor key and a song in a minor mode" ! If you really want to experience this , a good example is an old song by Gordon Lightfoot ( The Ballad of the Yarmouth Castle). I think of RELATIVE minor as a comparison to the harmonic minor in that the key of C Major has no sharps or flats and the key of A Minor has no sharps or flats - so A would be the Relative minor key (because a song in A minor has no sharps or flats in the key signature). Relative minor, Pure minor, Natural minor, Aeolian mode - all the same thing. [ comments . . . . ]

Word for music critic: paragraphs :)

To a jazz player the key of C Major is something that is totally foreign to him - he has no idea what you're talking about ; to him he's playing in IONIAN mode ; (of course he'll know what a Major scale is) but the reality is is that to him its just another mode.

This is actually just exactly backwards. As a jazz player, what concerns me are two basic things: what is the key of the moment, and what is the melody line?

Modes are just scales that I can use if I'd like to, but they are only really guideposts. What matters is what I'm trying to achieve - am I trying to outline the harmony? Am I trying to rephrase the melody line? And in both of those cases, scales and arpeggios are merely starting points.

Suppose I'm playing a typical ii-V-I, the song might be in the key of Bb, but they key of the moment, as dictated by the harmonic structure, is G minor. I won't go "Oh, I should play G Dorian!" I might decide I'm doing to play a diminished lick to highlight the minor moment. Or perhaps I'll outline the harmony with chromatic runs around the harmonic tones. Maybe I'll do some quick arpeggios in different inversions. Maybe I'll restate the melody by inverting some intervals. Maybe I'll combine those ideas in some way.

What I won't be doing is thinking in terms of modality. And I don't know many jazz players who think that way anymore. It was quite common in the post-Bop era, and some older guys still operate that way. As well as a few hangers on -- largely self-taught guitar players who tend to not grasp how to do anything more interesting than riff on a scale!!

The better the jazz player, the less they make use of modes at all, and the more they are aware of altering scales to achieve desired effects. If someone is playing over a b5 chord, they won't think in terms of lydian mode. They're going to think in terms of 'flat the 5th.' If they are playing using a major or minor scale to begin with -- which they often won't be.

That's not to say I won't sometimes whip out a few dorian licks if I feel like it. But it won't be because I've decide the song is in that mode. It will be because that's what I feel like doing over a particular passage that has a minor tonal center.

One must tread lightly here . . . "key of the moment" . . . . that specifically pertains to jazz since world class jazz players typically dont really play in any designated key - at least not for very long . . . thus the whole jazz experience is a connected world of interconnected notes making complex chordal sounds (includes sharp and flattened notes) with a plethoria of runs that are blended together to give a variety of modal sounds. Jazz players bend the rules, improvise, stretch the limits, and expand the possibilities of the guitar using a variety of techniques. Nothing wrong with jazz ! Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, well music (especially jazz) is in the ear of the listener. I guess it depends how one learns jazz and views the jazz experience . . . . from an academic point of view I do stand by my earlier statement. Appreciating and learning modes (and applying them) is not easy. I listened to a lot of Lenny Breau and it would be difficult to say he was playing in any key . . . (your key of the moment is very accurate and to the point !). Yet, to define a key as a point is rather foggy ; since a key to most guitar players typically indicates a certain "restricted or harmonic bounded area" they play within ; AND more important a certain repetitive chord or bass note(s) that played more frequenty than others . . . . If I'm playing a song in C Major then there are underlying concepts and basic rules one must be aware of and can't get away from (or shouldn't go too far off the beaten path) - the same if I want to create an A AEOLAIN modal sound. Most classical music is in PHYRGIAN mode which again could be the key of C if you're looking at E PHYRGIAN . . . . ( anyways, we digress - the initial question was "Why is the Aeolian mode is referred to as a NATURAL MINOR scale and I hope thats been answered").

Paragraphs, please. It's really hard to sort out fact from wild speculation in your posts (or is that the point?)

I ignored replying to your first post, because I figured it was so hard to read that nobody would. But since you're keeping at the paragraph thing, I figure you've got it coming... anybody doing all the work to read through your posts deserves to know what's what here.
Experienced guitar players know that progression from C Major to Am is "Extremely Strong" ; similarily from G Major to E Minor ; similarily from the root chord to the harmony built on the 6th degree of any Major Scale is an extremely strong progression or chord change

No, it's not. "Progression" implies motion; a V-I cadence is a strong progression. A I-vi movement implies a change of color - you are only changing ONE NOTE in the chord: C major (C-E-G) to A minor (A-C-E) is extremely stable. And in terms of chord progressions, "stable" is the opposite of "strong".
An Aeolian modal sound can be thought of as a "mood" because all the other chords revolve around this minor chord - in our case A minor against a C chord or C note

If you play an A natural minor (A Aeolian) scale against a C chord, you will NOT sound modal. Tonality is a complicated subject, and modality even more so, but in the best case, you'll sound like you're in C major... in the worst case, you'll sound like you don't know what you're doing. That's because when you're playing in A minor, you're establishing a tonality (the "key signature") that includes the same notes as C, but using a different tonal center. But the chord in this case has it's own tonal center: C. Mixing two modes - here, one in the harmony and another in the melody - is called bitonality. In general, the chord will win. That's because listeners will hear the chord changes as the "song" and the solo as an improvisation that doesn't work as well as it should or could.
If you look at the Harmonic minor and Melodic minor scales they have a G sharp note which tends to really accentuate a minorish key sound and really "key stamps" the song as being in a minor key

They have a G sharp because that allows you to build an E7 chord (E-G#-B-D). And that allows you to use a V7-I cadence - which is the strongest cadence.
To a jazz player the key of C Major is something that is totally foreign to him - he has no idea what you're talking about ; to him he's playing in IONIAN mode

That's not true of any jazz player I've ever met or worked with. And I've been playing jazz a long time. We say "it's in Ab major". (We'll then go ahead and solo in Ab Lydian if it's appropriate).
Relative minor, Pure minor, Natural minor, Aeolian mode - all the same thing.

Three out of four ain't bad. "Relative minor" can refer to ANY minor scale (natural, harmonic, melodic, gypsy, dorian, phrygian, etc) that shares a key signature with the related major key. When jazzers move to the relative minor, they'll actually be using melodic or harmonic minor scales a lot more often than the natural minor.

Now to your second post....
he whole jazz experience is a connected world of interconnected notes making complex chordal sounds (includes sharp and flattened notes) with a plethoria of runs that are blended together to give a variety of modal sounds

You're talking about subsets of jazz (and mixing them up a bit). Soloing to create more complex chords than shown in the original chart is a hallmark of bebop; soloing to evoke specific modes is more typical of the modal jazz that followed about 10-15 years later. And by "plethoria" I have to guess you meant "plethora". To say that's the whole jazz experience ignores hundreds of great tunes. For example, the modal jazz piece "So What". Or the bossa "One Note Samba". Or at least 60% of the tunes a jazzer will play in a typical gig.
a key to most guitar players typically indicates a certain "restricted or harmonic bounded area" they play within ; AND more important a certain repetitive chord or bass note(s) that played more frequenty than others

Yes, the concept of "key" creates a bounded space. But no, key does not imply one note is played more frequently than the others. Want proof? Play "Happy Birthday" in C. You'll find six "C" notes... but NINE "G" notes.
Most classical music is in PHYRGIAN mode

No, it's not. The use of modes within classical music is largely confined to "early" music (pre-baroque through about 1700) or music composed after about 1950. Within the eras commonly defined as "classical" - the baroque, classical, and romantic periods - almost all music is in the major scale or the harmonic minor scale. The Phrygian mode is used most often in flamenco music.

As far as answering the original question goes, I did that the day it was posted... 20 months ago.

Hope this is better . . . . (and thanks for your comments) !
1) Experienced guitar players know that progression from C Major to Am is "Extremely Strong" ; similarily from G Major to E Minor ; similarily from the root chord to the harmony built on the 6th degree of any Major Scale is an extremely strong progression or chord change

OK - we agree that a I-VI movement implies a strong change of color - more so than a I-II or I-III movement ...... no ?!
One would find few that would disagree if I said "the most important minor chord" in the key C major key is the minor chord built on the 6th degree of the scale , so thats what I meant when I said extremely strong.

2) An Aeolian modal sound can be thought of as a "mood" because all the other chords revolve around this minor chord - in our case A minor against a C chord or C note

You are correct here and I should have rephrased the above line. Any chord or complex chord structure will tend to gravitate to the lowest frequency note (the bass note) ; thus if the bass note is an A note a strong A"ish" presence will be felt. Thus if I play A Aeolian (which is an offset C major scale) against an A minor chord the minor modal feeling will prevail.

3) If you look at the Harmonic minor and Melodic minor scales they have a G sharp note which tends to really accentuate a minorish key sound and really "key stamps" the song as being in a minor key
OK - dominant7 to root . . . . strongest cadence . . . . sure
(not going to debate this but how minorish is it if the G# is removed)

4) To a jazz player the key of C Major is something that is totally foreign to him - he has no idea what you're talking about ; to him he's playing in IONIAN mode
OK . . . the key is Ab major - is that not the same as Ab IONIAN . . . . no !
"We'll then go ahead and solo in Ab Lydian if it's appropriate" ( or any other mode for that matter if its appropriate . . . ). Are you not soloing on what is happening now, has just happened, or is about to happen ? Perhaps I shouldn't have said "totally foreign" but to jazz players a key represents something that can have bounds more or less outside the normal . . . . no ?!

5) Relative minor, Pure minor, Natural minor, Aeolian mode - all the same thing.
OK - (moot) but point taken !

6) the whole jazz experience is a connected world of interconnected notes making complex chordal sounds (includes sharp and flattened notes) with a plethoria of runs that are blended together to give a variety of modal sounds
subsets of jazz (and mixing them up a bit is what a lot of great jazz is all about . . . ) ; freedom (within limits . . . . . I don't know . . . ) but certainly modality and creativity does play a significant part in jazz.

7) Yes, the concept of "key" creates a bounded space. But no, key does not imply one note is played more frequently than the others. Want proof? Play "Happy Birthday" in C. You'll find six "C" notes... but NINE "G" notes.

Key does imply that one note or chord is played more frequently that others. The key word here is "imply". I'm talking generally here . . . and there "are exceptions". One would expect in the key of C there to generally be a lot of G notes (the dominant) and of course a lot of C notes. One of the beautiful things about harmony is that it is somewhat endless and the rules are more or less strong guidelines and not written in stone - at least not for the jazz player. If there aren't a lot of C and G notes in a melody in the key of C then I would have to question why they say its in the key of C ?!

8) Most classical music is in PHYRGIAN mode
I said "most classical music" - not all. You are quite correct about flamenco. Phyrgian mode is certainly excellent for Spanish sounding licks.

I'm not going to debate all of this. because I've already raised my points, and folks will do their own research and make their own judgements.

But it's interesting how you cling to "most" classical music being Phrygian. It's not. Most classical music is major or minor, and what's minor is typically in harmonic or melodic minor.

The only exception is Bruckner. He wrote quite a bit in the Phrygian mode. But that's ONE composer among thousands.

If you look at the other classical pieces commonly cited as examples of the Phrygian mode, you find something interesting: almost all of them are variations or reharmonizations of earlier works from the pre-baroque era, where modal music was common. Bach cantatas are often cited... but most of those are based on pre-baroque hymns. Ralph Vaughan Williams wrote a fantasia in phrygian, but that's based on a theme by Thomas Tallis - another pre-baroque composer. The majority of the works of Bach and Vaughan Williams are NOT Phrygian.

Of original classical works (other than Bruckner) you've got one of Brahm's symphonies - that would be 1/4 of his symphonic output, and less than 1% of his total works.

So I'll challenge you - what's the basis for your statement that "most" classical music is Phrygian?

Hope this is better . . . . (and thanks for your comments) !
1) Experienced guitar players know that progression from C Major to Am is "Extremely Strong" ; similarily from G Major to E Minor ; similarily from the root chord to the harmony built on the 6th degree of any Major Scale is an extremely strong progression or chord change

This is not correct. It's not even wrong. C6 is Am, so the progression from C Major to A minor is not extremely strong, it's basically a continuation of the same chord. You will find many songs, in every genre, where an A is played either in the melody, bass line, or other instrument over a C chord. It is not a strong progression. I'll point you to Walter Piston's classic text "Harmony." or any other standard text on the subject to read up on what makes for a strong progression.
One would find few that would disagree if I said "the most important minor chord" in the key C major key is the minor chord built on the 6th degree of the scale , so thats what I meant when I said extremely strong.

Sorry, everyone would disagree. The vi chord is called the relative minor because of it's strong relationship to the I chord, it is a very effective substitute. By contrast, it is rather difficult to substitute most other chords for the IV or V without extending the chords at least somewhat. Without saying that any chord is unimportant in tertiary harmonies, it is entirely possible to play a song in C and substituted an inversion for every A minor chord and no one will bat an eye.
2) An Aeolian modal sound can be thought of as a "mood" because all the other chords revolve around this minor chord - in our case A minor against a C chord or C note

No, it can't. Aeolian played against a C major harmonic structure will sound precisely like C major. C Aeolian played against a C major progression will be recognizable as a minor sound.
You are correct here and I should have rephrased the above line. Any chord or complex chord structure will tend to gravitate to the lowest frequency note (the bass note) ; thus if the bass note is an A note a strong A"ish" presence will be felt. Thus if I play A Aeolian (which is an offset C major scale) against an A minor chord the minor modal feeling will prevail.

*sigh* Whatever . ..

4) To a jazz player the key of C Major is something that is totally foreign to him - he has no idea what you're talking about ; to him he's playing in IONIAN mode

I'm sorry but you are sooooo wrong. Sit down with any small jazz group and you'll hear someone call out for "changes in A" or whatever. You darn well better know what key you're in. Joe Pass was famous for giving his students a lesson and then telling them to play it in every key. But then maybe Joe wasn't much of a jazz player in your mind.

If you aren't aware of what key you are in while playing jazz it is nearly impossible to do sane chord substitutions.
6) the whole jazz experience is a connected world of interconnected notes making complex chordal sounds (includes sharp and flattened notes) with a plethoria of runs that are blended together to give a variety of modal sounds
subsets of jazz (and mixing them up a bit is what a lot of great jazz is all about . . . ) ; freedom (within limits . . . . . I don't know . . . ) but certainly modality and creativity does play a significant part in jazz.

Modality has little to do with creativity. The most common scales I use while playing jazz are major, harmonic minor, melodic minor, diminished and augmented. Other than that I tend to either play with the harmony - outlining it using chromatic phrasings. There is such a thing as modal jazz, but it is a subset of the jazz frontier. Are there jazz players who use modes? Certainly. But they use parallel modes, which you seem to be completely confused about.
Key does imply that one note or chord is played more frequently that others. The key word here is "imply". I'm talking generally here . . . and there "are exceptions".

No, it doesn't. Again, you're simply wrong.
One would expect in the key of C there to generally be a lot of G notes (the dominant) and of course a lot of C notes.

I can find any number of songs in a key where the tonic appears as the least frequent note. There are tons of songs where the V and I chords are used only within cadences at the ends of phrases, and simply don't appear elsewhere. Similarly for melodic phrases. There is no reason to expect a greater frequency of one note over another in a song based on the key. There is reason to expect a particular tonal center of a piece, the note to which the melodic line leads, based on key. But that is not the same thing.
If there aren't a lot of C and G notes in a melody in the key of C then I would have to question why they say its in the key of C ?!

Harmonic structure, tonal center, and key signature would be the primary reasons.
8) Most classical music is in PHYRGIAN mode
I said "most classical music" - not all. You are quite correct about flamenco.

And yet you are still incorrect.

Again , one has to tread lightly here. How do you define "classical music" - many would define it terms of minor and modal - probably just as many would not. A lot of Spanish licks, and as you pointed out flamenco music is Phyrgian. In my opinion I'm guessing the music listening public at large generally considers classical guitar as being associated with flamenco (finger picking and/or a nylon string guitar ) and really doesn't differentiate between classical and flamenco (but thats my opinion) ; and its certainly not the "end all" as far as classical guitar music is concerned ( I do agree with you). Fransisco Tarrega, arguably the father of modern classical guitar was born in Spain in 1854 and certainly incorporated much traditional Spanish chord progressions in his music ; E Major, F Major, G Major, F Major, E Major - is derived from the Phyrgian mode.

The tuning of the guitar, with its natural notes in the "first position" actually outlining the Phrygian mode (E, F, G, A, B, C, D) is a feature that flamenco players (and classical guitarists) make much use of (thats certainly not to say other variations/extensions/patterns aren't important).

One could argue that the influence of Gypsy, Hebraic, and Moorish music, along with dance rhythms like the Fandango, Soleares and Buleria would be identified as Spanish and I would say that would be quite correct. Yet, I think many would also categorize it as great classical guitar music . . . .

Tread lightly?

Let me see if I follow your logic:

1. Flamenco music makes extensive use of the Phrygian mode.
2. Flamenco music can be played on classical guitar.
3. Classical guitars are "classical", so what they play is "classical music".
4. Therefore, most classical music is in Phrygian mode.

You're kidding, right?

The average Joe (or Jane) hearing the term "classical music" thinks of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart and the like. That's the common definition. Virtually NONE of that is in Phrygian mode. And I have never encountered anyone who defined "classical music" as "minor or modal". A whole lot of classical music is major, and very little is modal.

All the side things you're bringing into this don't advance your argument - they're digressions to muddy the water. Guitar tuning? ALL the notes of ALL the scales can be found in the first position; there is nothing about the tuning that favors Phrygian over any other scale. And today's standard tuning predates Tarrega (and more importantly, Torres) so it can't possibly be related to Spanish music either.