Poisoning the Well

Pretty soon, Esteban will be a premium brand. :lol:

Doesn't this also demonstrate a lack of caring for "guitar as art" on the part of the biggest instrument companies?

:lol:

Sorry if I find that funny. Art is for the artist (Vincent Van Gogh rarely made any money from his paintings). Don't confuse the ability to manufacture a musical instrument with art. The sole purpose of manufacturing anything is to create more value from the whole than from the sum of its parts. Even the best luthier, who makes works of art doesn't sell guitars at a loss.

Gibson / Fender / Esteban are in business. The more they sell, the more they make. It is that simple. Stores like Guitar Center are growing, store sales and music internet site sales are booming, but not fast enough for Gibson and others. Walmart is the largest retailer in America, if not the world. Of course you can not sell a full priced Gibson in Walmart, or BestBuy or Circuit City or the local Piggly Wiggly (or whatever your local grocery chain is called). So cheap guitars are produced, and are sold. Walmart is very good at selling, they don't pick up a line of anything unless they are sure they can move it out the door.

But this is nothing new for Walmart (KMart, Target, et al). They sell TV's but not the best TV's, they sell stereo equipment but not the best stereo equipment. They sell sporting goods, but not the best sporting goods. Tiger Woods will never walk into a Target and buy a driver to use on the tour.

They sell bowling balls for about $40. I bowl. I would never think of buying a bowling ball from them. When I buy a ball it costs $180 to $220. But the $40 bowling balls are round and will knock down pins. Will a person who buys a $40 ball give up the sport. Probably not. After a bit they will probably realize the difference between a Walmart ball and a ProShop ball, and at that point decide if moving up is for them. There is also a wide range available between $40 and 180. Just like guitars. Not only that, the $40 ball is manufactured by the same company that makes $220 balls. The quality of the high end ball has not been compromised by the $40 ball.

Same thing here.

We here are artists. While a few of us here make money with music (I'm not one of those) the majority play for the art, for the love of it. For the guitar manufacturers this is a business decision, plain and simple. Gibson markets these guitars as student guitars. Are there better guitars out there in this price range. Could be, maybe, probably. Then it is the job of those other companies to fight for that market segment. For that is what it is all about for them. Market segment, shelf space, dollars and cents.

So what are we really disgusted about? Will the quality of the guitars that Gibson / Fender make be diluted by this move to discount outlets? Probably not, although some will argue that it already has happened. Are we concerned that these low quality guitars will find their way into the hands of unsuspecting people who won't enjoy them. Happens everyday with all kinds of products. But maybe there is a budding Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, BB King, Jimmy Page out there whose parents are poor, too poor to afford a $300 Oscar Schmit but can swing $120 for a electric starter kit. At least these are sold for what they are. Beginners instruments, for "aspiring musicians", unlike Estaboob who claims there is no differnece between his $5000 guitar the cr#p he's hawking.

It is also possible that after playing these lower quality guitars some, after interacting with others who play, will say, Forget that Gibson stuff, this ________ plays great. (fill in the blank with your favorite mfg). It is just a business decision and it is for the companies to reap the harvest or wallow in the dust of that decision.

Irregardless of what happens we all will survive it and live to play another day.

Michael
(Not from Australia... but I can waffle too Chris :) )

Slightly off topic, but I saw a commercial for Geico Insurance with "Esteboob" yesterday, laughed like crazy. He's almost up there with William Shattner at this point in the self- parody dept.

Gibson / Fender / Esteban are in business. The more they sell, the more they make. It is that simple. Stores like Guitar Center are growing, store sales and music internet site sales are booming, but not fast enough for Gibson and others. Walmart is the largest retailer in America, if not the world. Of course you can not sell a full priced Gibson in Walmart, or BestBuy or Circuit City or the local Piggly Wiggly (or whatever your local grocery chain is called). So cheap guitars are produced, and are sold. Walmart is very good at selling, they don't pick up a line of anything unless they are sure they can move it out the door.

But this is nothing new for Walmart (KMart, Target, et al). They sell TV's but not the best TV's, they sell stereo equipment but not the best stereo equipment. They sell sporting goods, but not the best sporting goods. Tiger Woods will never walk into a Target and buy a driver to use on the tour.

They sell bowling balls for about $40. I bowl. I would never think of buying a bowling ball from them. When I buy a ball it costs $180 to $220. But the $40 bowling balls are round and will knock down pins. Will a person who buys a $40 ball give up the sport. Probably not. After a bit they will probably realize the difference between a Walmart ball and a ProShop ball, and at that point decide if moving up is for them. There is also a wide range available between $40 and 180. Just like guitars. Not only that, the $40 ball is manufactured by the same company that makes $220 balls. The quality of the high end ball has not been compromised by the $40 ball.

So what are we really disgusted about? Will the quality of the guitars that Gibson / Fender make be diluted by this move to discount outlets? Probably not, although some will argue that it already has happened. Are we concerned that these low quality guitars will find their way into the hands of unsuspecting people who won't enjoy them. Happens everyday with all kinds of products. But maybe there is a budding Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, BB King, Jimmy Page out there whose parents are poor, too poor to afford a $300 Oscar Schmit but can swing $120 for a electric starter kit. At least these are sold for what they are. Beginners instruments, for "aspiring musicians", unlike Estaboob who claims there is no differnece between his $5000 guitar the cr#p he's hawking.

It is also possible that after playing these lower quality guitars some, after interacting with others who play, will say, Forget that Gibson stuff, this ________ plays great. (fill in the blank with your favorite mfg). It is just a business decision and it is for the companies to reap the harvest or wallow in the dust of that decision.

Irregardless of what happens we all will survive it and live to play another day.

Michael
(Not from Australia... but I can waffle too Chris :) )

mikey, I agree with most of what you said and it was very well put...however there were a few things I didn't agree with. You mentioned that these stores don't sell the "best" of a particular product. I don't totally agree...They don't sell the "most well known" or the "most popular" or a particular product... Wilson sporting goods used to be top of the line at one time and now just because they are sold at Walmart and Kmart people don't give them any credit. Black & Decker tools are just as good as Craftsman, MAC, and other big name tools. Converse sneakers were all the rage when I was growing up andf couldn't be found in a department store...now Walmart and Kmart carry them...Panasonic and Emerson make GREAT televisions...

A lot of this is perception...many feel becaause they are sold at these discount chain stores they are of low quality. Many of these products are...but there are a few that are even BETTER than those found at specialty stores. I have a Panasonic TV I bought from WalMart that outlasted my Sony I bought at an electronics store...

The second factor is convienence. Walmart, Target, Kmart, etc offer lay-a-way plans so those with low incomes can still purchase "higher-end" products... Plus if one Walmart is sold out of a product there usually is another Walmart up the street.

The difference between the products I mentioned and guitars is guitars need more "human interaction" to build...(or should I say "assemble")...especially acoustics. I have yet to see a machine that can string a guitar LOL! Quality musical instruments in general have been one of the LAST products to go to the assembly line that use more machines than humans to produce. As soon as that happens (as with ANY product) quality is low. The idea of an assembly line is to put out MORE products and not necessarily BETTER. The Asians have a knack for for combining decent quality and high production. They have been at it for a LONG time. That's why guitars like Agiles (and even Squires) are not that bad. Plus of course they are non-union workers and receive a HECK of a lot less money than Western workers.

Many companies have sold out...and I do believe Gibson and Fender have done exactly that. But these companies have "loyal" customers and once they realize its not the usual expected quality sales will drop. Plus with the internet word gets around and people will avoid those products. Any advertiser will tell you the BEST form of advertising is word of mouth. Agile is probably the BEST example I can give in the music industry. I have NEVER seen an Agile ad during the Super Bowl...and if I do I think I would stop buying them!

What really disgusts me (Thats to harsh a word but since everyone else is using it) isnt that Wal-mart, etc are selling cheap quality Fenders or Gibsons that might get into the hands of budding artists. It is that, once again, they are taking away income from smaller specialty stores. Your local music shop is counting on those sales and they can set it up and give the guy a few pointers. The money and income generated from that sale and all future service and product sold is that mans livelyhood. Now, selling them at Wal-mart, it takes away a portion of the local musicians income.

Wal-mart does it all the time. Moves into a town. Starts selling paintball guns, tools, groceries... and more and more of the little guys go under. Its not new news.

I used to play paintball. My son is getting into it now.. But I would NEVER buy him a marker from Wal-mart. Not because it might be bad quality but because I want my local paintball dealers to stay in business. I cringe when I have to buy my groceries at wal-mart. They have some great selection. I prefer theirs over the local grocery store. But I dont shop there much anymore because not only are they taking from the local community, but now they have the self check out machines and they are getting rid of a portion of their cashiers.

Is it wrong of Wal-mart? No.. Wrong of Gibson/Fender? Heck no.. Its just how our (people in the US anyway) economy is going. The only person that can control it is the consumer. A majority of the consumers start shopping a different way and wal-mart will react. OHh they will still somehow come out on top but they will react. Its that simple.

Geoo

What really disgusts me (Thats to harsh a word but since everyone else is using it) isnt that Wal-mart, etc are selling cheap quality Fenders or Gibsons that might get into the hands of budding artists. It is that, once again, they are taking away income from smaller specialty stores. Your local music shop is counting on those sales and they can set it up and give the guy a few pointers.
Geoo

I've seen the displacement of the retail small business man over my lifetime. Sad. Hardly any press like when small farmers lost their butts 20 years ago.

Nowadays, even the local small shops are often part of smaller chains. It's tough to find that anymore, at least in bigger metro areas. These specialty chains are no better than department stores, except they have bigger selections and you 'might' get someone helping you who cares. Good luck.

What's worse, you may go into the specialty store (something like Sam Ash or GC, but not specifically) expecting better service, advice, knowledge, etc. What you may not know is that there can be conflicts of interests with these places. They have numbers to meet and their income often coincides with profitability numbers. Hence, it means a lot to their product to sell high margin stuff.

And then there's the turnover. I've purchased 4 guitars from these places over the last 18 months. The first three guys are gone from their places. So much for finding a person you can trust for years.

Oooops, I've rambled a bit. This is opinions based on experience as a former retail district manager and store manager. (I've since moved on to being a technical geek. Life is good now. :D )

Oh, and regarding the conflicts of interest, it's a generalization that is often true. I do not, however, have any knowledge of any places specific employee earnings programs. Believe me though, there is SOME metric they are measured by that they may not be telling you about.

I hear a lot of the same stuff about Wal-Mart goods on the gun discussion boards. They get dismissed as "junk" just because of where they're sold. I've got three Wal-Mart rifles, a Weatherby Vanguard, a Winchester Model 70 and a Savage Model 12BVSS. The first two are Wal-Mart "exclusive" budget models built with cost-saving features. The Vanguard was when I bought it, and I believe still is, only sold through Wal-Mart (making them the biggest Weatherby distributor.) It's a Weatherby-spec version of a rifle made by Howa in Japan, versions of which are or have been sold under the Howa name and others. Well made, sturdy, reliable and accurate. (Howa has also made the Weatherby-designed Mark V rifles under contract for Weatherby, who never actually built their own rifles.) The Winchester's a budget model with a black plastic stock, the currently unfashionable post-1964 "push feed" style bolt action, a blind magazine with no floor plate, and a cheap scope sight that was sloppily installed. Like a poorly set up guitar. The Savage is their normal benchrest/varmint rifle with laminated birch stock, stainless action and barrel and their highly touted "AccuTrigger." I had to do some reworking of the scope mounting on that Winchester, and had to buy and mount my own scopes on the others (as is usual.) But guess what? Though none of those rifles are going to get me any bragging rights among prideful "gun snobs," they all shoot as well as anybody's fancy "work of art" rifles.

I have no idea whether the Gibson guitars being sold through the discounters are of equal, beter or worse quality than other guitars at the same price points. But I'll bet that if they're behind, they'll catch up quite soon. The Chinese have proven themselves quite adept at responding to feedback and improving their quality. I expect they'll turn out serviceable entry level instruments, and that they'll prove to be a major profit center for the big name companies, whose higher end products will end up selling better to people who were introduced to the brand as beginners and come to aspire to a higher level piece. The "poisoning the well" scenario isn't going to pan out, IMO.

And Mikey's right. That's business. If you want a "guitar as art," you'll have to look to the independent builders. No major manufacturer is going to devote the highest quality materials or a great deal of individual attention to even their most expensive models.

ricochet, your point reminds me of one of my favorite sayings. "Generalizations are bad." :)

"Generalizations are bad." :)In general. :lol:

mikey, I agree with most of what you said and it was very well put...however there were a few things I didn't agree with. You mentioned that these stores don't sell the "best" of a particular product. I don't totally agree...They don't sell the "most well known" or the "most popular" or a particular product... Wilson sporting goods used to be top of the line at one time and now just because they are sold at Walmart and Kmart people don't give them any credit. Black & Decker tools are just as good as Craftsman, MAC, and other big name tools. Converse sneakers were all the rage when I was growing up andf couldn't be found in a department store...now Walmart and Kmart carry them...Panasonic and Emerson make GREAT televisions...

The difference between the products I mentioned and guitars is guitars need more "human interaction" to build...(or should I say "assemble")...especially acoustics. I have yet to see a machine that can string a guitar LOL! Quality musical instruments in general have been one of the LAST products to go to the assembly line that use more machines than humans to produce. As soon as that happens (as with ANY product) quality is low. The idea of an assembly line is to put out MORE products and not necessarily BETTER. The Asians have a knack for for combining decent quality and high production. They have been at it for a LONG time. That's why guitars like Agiles (and even Squires) are not that bad. Plus of course they are non-union workers and receive a HECK of a lot less money than Western workers.

Wilson is still top of the line. Their irons, Wilson Staff (formerly known as ProStaff) find their way into pleny of bags on the tour. They also make entry level clubs at prices affordable and reasonable to beginners. These are the ones you'll find in the large discount stores.

As for Black and Decker, I have to disagree. They may be great for tackling the weekend 'honey do' list but if you talk to guys in the trades, guys who use these tools on a day to day basis I'm sure you'll find brands like DeWalt, Milwaukee, Ryobi and Makita in their tool chests. The best B&D has to offer can't shine light on these.

As far as Asian assembly plants are concerned, where do you think these guitars are coming from. These Gibsons are not coming from Nashville. Who knows, might even be made right next to the Agiles.

And Yes. Perception is a much greater force than reality.

Michael

I have no idea whether the Gibson guitars being sold through the discounters are of equal, beter or worse quality than other guitars at the same price points. But I'll bet that if they're behind, they'll catch up quite soon. The Chinese have proven themselves quite adept at responding to feedback and improving their quality. I expect they'll turn out serviceable entry level instruments, and that they'll prove to be a major profit center for the big name companies, whose higher end products will end up selling better to people who were introduced to the brand as beginners and come to aspire to a higher level piece. The "poisoning the well" scenario isn't going to pan out, IMO.

These Gibbies are far worse quality than other Chinese-manufactured models from other makers. And reason has little or nothing to do do with the Chinese manufacture, but instead the level of quality Gibson is willing to accept and mark with its name. Chinese factories already turn out high quality instruments for Ibanez and others -- ever play an Artcore? Good stuff. But then Ibanez has been known for quality for many years. Gibson? Ah ... not so much.

(At this moment I'm sitting in the conference room of a Taiwanese manufacturer which my company happens to use. Not quite mainland China, but close.)

In response to several references to my "guitar as art" comment, I have a few comments.

It isn't so much that the guitar itself is art (although in many cases it is, which is cool), it is the fact that the guitar MAKES art. You would think that one of the most famous guitar companies on the planet would be aware of this. Producing something that is essentially useless for what it is designed to be is not only not "art," it's a shame. And just because something is mass-produced it doesn't mean it isn't art, either. But, as I wrote before, Caveat Emptor.

I think the fact that OE-30's are $149 bucks is incredible, and I think they are beautiful and definitely art. I think that being able to produce something like that and bring it to the market at that price point is an art, too.

Gibson is, of course, in business to make money. How they do that is up to them. If their executives think that using their reputation for making quality instruments should be used to move sub-par merchandise, so be it. It isn't illegal--at worst, it is sleazy. Most people couldn't care less what Gibson does, or care how good their guitars are. Judging by comments of people who have bought them in the recent past, the quality of their "actual" guitars has dropped dramatically.

As far as someone buying one of these guitars and then quitting because they s**k isn't even an issue. There are people of more robust means who buy their kids excellent instruments and those kids quit, too. And what about the one kid who does stick with it? If not for really cheap guitars, available in Walmart or Target, he may never have gotten one at all. You can actually get a pretty decent guitar for $100 if you shop around and know what to look for. But, most people won't. Music stores can be intimidating, especially for someone who knows nothing about what they want. Most people wouldn't know the difference between a Gibson and an Esteban--hence Esteban selling lots of guitars.

The main problem I see with these, aside from the abysmal quality is that they are boxed up, no demo models, no amps so you are basically buying a pig in the poke.

I saw a pig in the poke yesterday at Sam's Club. The Stratostar (something like that) from Fender. It was $89.95 with a practice amp. They had it on display and straped to a metal post. Don't even get to touch the guitar.

Now I'm interested in seeing what these mass market Gibson models are like.

So far my favorite cheapy guitar has been from Peavey. I hope they don't start selling those at the big box stores.

It's beginning to look as if Fender and Gibson marketeers met and decided to have a contest to see who could sell more crap before the new year.