Why no tone control for the bridge pickup

Oh, the topic .... ummm :lol: I agree with the previously stated ........ if you are using the bridge pickup, you probably want a very trebley biting sound so you would not likely want to roll off the tone knob anyhow.

And as insulted as some MIM owners are at my whinings,
I too (as a MIA/vintage owner) am insulted at the lack of understanding of the true tone of a good Fender guitar,
or at the difference in construction.

With over a million Fender Strats made, there are significant differences in construction no matter what you're looking at...

In the first year alone some used 100K pots for the tone and volume controls, others used 250K pots. That's going to make a difference in tone - a bigger difference than the body assembly method.

It gets worse when you compare one year to another - what's the "real" Strat construction? What's the body made from - ash, alder, or mahogany? One piece neck, or two? Slab fingerboard or veneer? Three tremolo springs or five? Stamped bridge or cast? 3 way switch or 5? All those variations (and a lot more) have been "stock" on the Strat over the years.

I own "name brand" guitars as well as unknown ones, vintage as well as new, and I've probably played over 1000 different guitars over the years. Every one has its own character, because guitars are made of natural materials - I've played $10,000+ guitars that were basically sleds, and $200 guitars that had magic in them.

Name brand guitars from a particular factory usually have a fairly consistent sound quality and playability, but that isn't always true. The guitars that are highly spoken of are often better than the budget brands, but that's not always true either.

I have a half dozen students with First Act guitars... one is a real gem to play. Another student, with the identical model, got stuck with one that's barely playable. That kind of quality variance usually isn't common in the bigger names, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist - I saw an unplayable Fender acoustic last year.

Most MIA Strats play and sound better than most MIM Strats. But that's not an absolute - my kids bought me a MIM a few years ago as a father's day gift, and after a little work it turned out to be a pretty decent guitar. I've certainly played worse MIA examples.

The amount of variables, and that some of those variables are filled with variables, is astounding. Some of those differences are lost on the un-seasoned ear. As I learn and play more, I can tell differences that I could not earlier. Same with any hobby. When I played a lot of baseball, I could tell the differences in the same model of wooden bats, made the same way to the same specs. One would feel right, and one wouldn't. I carry two sand wedges because different shots require a different feel for me. I discovered that I can cook some things relying on sense of smell and can adjust accordingly.

I've got no doubt that many of you can detect those kinds of differences in the guitars. What seperates us is the ability to recognize those differences and how much of a difference they really are. Maybe recognize is a bad word. Appreciate? Feel? Understand? Not sure. I do know this. What differences I can hear now is much more than what I could hear two years ago. I can only imagine what you seasoned players can detect.....and appreciate.

Laminate is not the same as venier. A venier is a very thin piece of wood glued on top of a cheaper one to give the look of an expensive wood. Multi piece is not the same as laminate. Laminate is plywood being that very thin layers are placed on top of each other with the grains alternating in direction to give strength. MIM's are not laminate, they are multi piece, just more pieces and I realise this now. Multi piece is several pieces glued side to side to make a wide piece of wood out of a more narrow one. So the MIM Strats are composed of more pieces of wood, hence cheaper to make. Makes sense. As for the venier, the site said they come to the factory beveled and veniered by the supplier. Makes sense then as some models have a translucent finish. I'm sorry if you are insulted at my asking questions. It is so easy to yank some peoples chains on these subjects. I wish I was as privelaged to own a "real" Strat but alas I only own two crappy Gibson Les Pauls. :P I can afford a made in USA Strat if I want one. I was teasing and that was probably wrong and I am sorry. I did not realise you were this sensitive on the matter. Please accept my public appology and I will no longer agitate you on the subject.

TR!!!!
Gettin pretty hot there bud....
Apology accepted.

And while the MIM's are veniered,
you are correct....
They are not laminated.
My bad.

Though as a MIM owner, you seemed pretty offended by my saying that they were. (laminate bodies).

Which is kinda how I feel.
When I say insulted, I mean I keep hearing all these people saying that they went to the music store and tried
both MIMs and MIAs and FELT no difference nor HEARD any difference.
So they inevitebly decided to pay half the price and got the MIM.
Same guitar right....?
Only it costs less because the parts were shipped to Mexico to be assembled by cheap labor.

WRONG.

They are not nearly the same guitar.
As we've just pointed out, the bodies are way different.
So are the pickups.
MIA's use "real" single coil Fender style (usually Alnico 5) pickups.
MIM's do not.
MIA's have different truss rods in the neck and have dressed frets.
They also have a different finish on the neck.
Much smoother in my opinion.
MIM neck finishes feel 'creepy' to me.
Like a super fine sandpaper or something.

So you see, they can't possibly PLAY, FEEL, or SOUND the same.

Why do I feel insulted????
Because most people have no idea the differences in construction between MIMs and MIAs.
And if they think they are the same, then I'm stupid for getting a MIA instead of a MIM, RIGHT....?

To me, it's like calling a VW a Porsche or an Audi.
There's nothing wrong with a VW.
Just let's not pry the name off of a VW and put a Porsche sticker on it.
A VW Beetle (even with a Porsche name on it) will not keep up with a Porsche.
And if I spent the money for a Porsche, I certainly wouldn't like a guy in a Bug tellin' me his car was just as good as mine.

And really, I keep harping about the subject because SO MANY people here think they are the same.
I think people have a right to know what they are getting.
When a newbie asks about guitars and gets told wonderful things about a MIM and that they're every bit as good as a MIA, well somebody needs to say 'hey, there are differences, and here's what they are.'

I hope this is getting clearer.
I did try to avoid this discussion.

Ken

As TR said, MIMs are not laminated or venierd as far as I know. They do consist of more parts, but to me that doesn't always mean thinner. Besides, all those numbers don't mean nothing to me. My favourite guitar is a $40 40+ years old kids guitar with a broken tone-knob and rusted tuners. Does it technically compare to my RG550 or AF75? Heck no, but I still like the el-cheapo best. I've played MIMs I really liked and played those I couldn't stand. Just make sure you understand your own taste and get the guitar that fits. If MIMs dont do it for you then be happy you got what you need.

As a sidenote I'm not easily insulted so I don't particularly mind people disagreeing with me. I'm sure my heart will thank me for that later.

I also have a 40+ year old el-cheapo guitar that I absolutely adore.
It has one pup in the neck. (If you can call it that - it's actually just a chrome covered magnet as far as I can tell,
and needs some help with a pre-amp to be able to hear it amplified)
It has no truss rod, and rarely (okay, never) stays in tune.

The body is shaped like a LP, only it's completely hollow.
No archtop.
I'm not even shure what kinda wood it is.
It's not thick by any means.

Has a fantastic low-fi blues sound and sounds GREAT with an ABSOLUTELY clean channel.

I use it mainly for my slide guitar.

Sort of a low-fi counter-point to my 'clean' slide style.

I don't know if it's a kiddie guitar.... It was my first 'real' guitar that I got when I was a kid though.

So you see, I'm not quite the snob that everyone must think.

In fact, Fenders are not 'top shelf' guitars anyway.

Those would be LP's and PRS's :P

Ken

And as insulted as some MIM owners are at my whinings,
I too (as a MIA/vintage owner) am insulted at the lack of understanding of the true tone of a good Fender guitar,
or at the difference in construction.

With over a million Fender Strats made, there are significant differences in construction no matter what you're looking at...

In the first year alone some used 100K pots for the tone and volume controls, others used 250K pots. That's going to make a difference in tone - a bigger difference than the body assembly method.

It gets worse when you compare one year to another - what's the "real" Strat construction? What's the body made from - ash, alder, or mahogany? One piece neck, or two? Slab fingerboard or veneer? Three tremolo springs or five? Stamped bridge or cast? 3 way switch or 5? All those variations (and a lot more) have been "stock" on the Strat over the years.

I own "name brand" guitars as well as unknown ones, vintage as well as new, and I've probably played over 1000 different guitars over the years. Every one has its own character, because guitars are made of natural materials - I've played $10,000+ guitars that were basically sleds, and $200 guitars that had magic in them.

Name brand guitars from a particular factory usually have a fairly consistent sound quality and playability, but that isn't always true. The guitars that are highly spoken of are often better than the budget brands, but that's not always true either.

I have a half dozen students with First Act guitars... one is a real gem to play. Another student, with the identical model, got stuck with one that's barely playable. That kind of quality variance usually isn't common in the bigger names, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist - I saw an unplayable Fender acoustic last year.

Most MIA Strats play and sound better than most MIM Strats. But that's not an absolute - my kids bought me a MIM a few years ago as a father's day gift, and after a little work it turned out to be a pretty decent guitar. I've certainly played worse MIA examples.

Okay -
First, I never said "REAL".

Yes, 100k pots changed to 250k pots will change the way the bass and treble are interpreted from the pups.
So yes it will change the tone.
Not in the same way as a change in body wood or body construction will though.
Let's not downplay that.

Yes, Fender changed constuction of their guitars from year to year, even with-in the confines of 'The Golden Years'.
Much the same way that Ford changed the Mustang within the confines of 64 1/2 - 70 (sometimes including 71-73).
Afficianados of both old Mustangs and old Fenders know what those differences were and have a preference for a certain year or certain options.

I have two Strats: a 71 and an 88.
There are not TWO OF THE SAME pieces on either guitar.
So, yes I'm quite aware of the differences in construction of JUST the MIA/vintage Fenders.

Yes, both 'sound' like Strats.
Though since nothing is really the same on the two, they each have their own identity.
And since they are so different, that also gives me an edge in KNOWING how certain options effect the tone of a guitar.
This is also another point that somewhat insults me.
I have had BOTH of these Strats for 20+ years. (Okay the MIA since 88 :wink: )
I think I know what I'm talking about here.
I have had ample time to figure it out.

The point is that vintage/MIA Fenders all have Fender style SC pups and solid wood bodies.
They also use higher quality hardware.
That is 'the standard' of their construction regardless of 'optional' changes throughout the years.
Much different from the 'standard' for MIM Fenders.

I agree, having a vintage or a MIA guitar does NOT mean it will be a GREAT guitar.
I had an old 60's SG that I was not happy with at all.
My MIA was bought brand new by me in 88 off the wall at Guitar Center in Chicago.
Knowing what I know about guitars now, I would not have looked twice at it.
The Quality actually leaves some to be desired.
Especially pertaining to the neck/body joint.
And there are at least 3 other 'issues' with it.

Also true that you can set up a MIM to play well.
And, they sound okay.
Let's be real though.
Are you telling me that a MIM is capable of sounding better than my 71????
A 75 Mustang II will always be a Mustang II.
No matter what you do to it, it will never be a 69 Boss 429 or a 65 Shelby GT-350R.

Now I have heard people say that MIMs are 'thin' sounding.
And thereby, condeming Fender guitars to all be thin sounding.
Some people say they like their Gibsons better, and just happen to own a MIM Fender because (it would seem) that it's
obligatory for guitar players to own a Fender.

I have been to other people's band practices, where they all had real nice tube amps, and were ALL playing MIM Fenders
through them.
Now, I'm going to be honest here.
It was all I could do to keep from leaving.
The harshness and thin sound of those guitars was awfully hard to take.

Thankfully, one time I happened to bring along my MIA Strat.
And halfway through the night, I got the lead player to switch to my guitar.
As I said, he had a KILLER tube amp.
And I had NEVER heard my 88 sound so good as I did that night.

He started playing like a man possesed.
And it spured the band on and everything came together and began to gel.
He was really going bannnas with the lead.
So much so that I remember thinking that there would be nothing left of my neck but sawdust when he was done.

When they were all done, the rest of the guys in the band took to the 88 like 'Marvin Berry' did to the 335 after 'Marty'
played Johnny B. Goode on 'Back to the Future'.

The first thing that they ALL say when they pick up the 88 for the first time -
WOW, this thing is HEAVY!!!!

Yes it is.
Part of the reason it sounds so good.

Do we need to go back to tone due to body construction???? :twisted:

Ken

Are you telling me that a MIM is capable of sounding better than my 71????

I've never heard your '71, so I have no idea. But I have heard my MIM and and MIA out of the same amp (my '76 Fender) - with much the same experience that you had. So I know that particular MIM is better than at least one MIA Strat.

You simply can't draw a general statement that "all XYZ guitars are crap" or "all XYZ guitars are better than ABCs".

In 1981 I went guitar shopping and came out with an Ibanez. Anyone playing back then remembers their reputation at the time: cheap Japanese knock-offs.

I showed up for a studio date and started unpacking my guitars. Another guitarist in the studio started laughing at it - "you bought that piece of crap?". I handed it to him. He played it for half a minute or so, and said "So... how much do you want for it?"

That didn't even mean his general impression of Ibanez at the time was wrong - just that I had found a really special guitar (after looking at probably a couple of hundred over several weeks).

Brand names and factory locations define general expectations. Some guitars will exceed them, others won't match up.

Trust your ears and fingers when you go shopping. They'll tell you a lot more than the peghead will - and if you ignore the off-brands when you buy, you'll be passing up at least a few really fine (and very affordable) guitars.

Hey, I just thought of something .... and before anyone gets upset or takes offense ..... no, this guitar is no way shape or form as good as a USA Strat ........ but ....... I got a cheap SX Strat knockoff from Rondo and it has a natural finished ash body. I decided to count the pieces. It is made of 3. A cheap Chineese made guitar with a 3 piece solid ash body. Go figure. I wonder how they can afford to do this? It's not a venier unless they did a 3 piece venier with different grains and veniered the inside of the trem cavity to match as well. :lol: I think this falls into that catagory of inexpensive gems though as the neck is perfect without a buzz or rattle and I set low action. The hardware and electronics could be better but I paid $129 for this thing.

Hey, I just thought of something .... and before anyone gets upset or takes offense ..... no, this guitar is no way shape or form as good as a USA Strat ........ but ....... I got a cheap SX Strat knockoff from Rondo and it has a natural finished ash body. I decided to count the pieces. It is made of 3. A cheap Chineese made guitar with a 3 piece solid ash body. Go figure. I wonder how they can afford to do this? It's not a venier unless they did a 3 piece venier with different grains and veniered the inside of the trem cavity to match as well. :lol: I think this falls into that catagory of inexpensive gems though as the neck is perfect without a buzz or rattle and I set low action. The hardware and electronics could be better but I paid $129 for this thing.

There were a couple fo big threads going on about them last year. I almost got one, but chickened out and got the MIM instead. (Well, a local trade-in factor thing too. Sam Ash still has the old guitar and it's marked for about $50 less than they gave me.)

When I say insulted, I mean I keep hearing all these people saying that they went to the music store and tried
both MIMs and MIAs and FELT no difference nor HEARD any difference.
So they inevitebly decided to pay half the price and got the MIM.
Same guitar right....?
Only it costs less because the parts were shipped to Mexico to be assembled by cheap labor.

WRONG.

They are not nearly the same guitar.

So, if they were assembled with the same parts (absolutely 100% identical) but one was assembled by Mexicans in Mexico would it still not be as good as a Fender assembled in the US? If it were assembled in the US by Mexicans who had the same training that the US worker receives would it be as good? Or can only guitars made in the US by US companies and US workers be any good? What about ESP guitars made from high quality components in Japan by Japanese workers (e.g. their Voyager line or the Edwards line)? Are those any good or not being made in the US are they unable to be?

Just wondering because this rant has the same sound as those where folks claim that only "US" cars can be any good (of course they ignore the fact tham many cars from Ford or GM were made elsewhere or that Toyota, Honda, Mazda, BMW, etc. make cars in the US). Is it actually about the quality of the components and not about the nationality of the owners or workers?

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. George Bernard Shaw

Hyperborea,
I think you are misreading here. I think CitiZenNoir is saying that it is a popular misconception that MIM Fenders are cheaper only because of low labor costs. I'm pretty sure the point is that MIA Fenders use higher quality materials. That makes sense to me, although I'm just fine with the sound of my MIM strat.

Hyperborea, yeah, I think he pretty clearly stated material differences later on in efforts to back up his point(s). At least that's how I understood it.

I'm just looking into this whole strats have no tone control for the bridge pickup -seems crazy to me in this day and age!
found a site that shows different ways to rewire a guitar and solve this and various other problems, check it out at http://www.guitarnuts.com/wiring/bridgetone.php
may attempt this when i install some new lace sensors, which incidentally I have no idea about, - anybody wired their own pickups before ? any pointers for this would be appreciated!
Rich

I've done it before and I have a few tips:

1) If you're removing all pickups and electronics and starting from scratch, a good idea would be to take a picture of the electronics before desoldering: if you get lost it may help you.

2) Make sure you know how to solder.

3) Mount the pickups, pots and switch on the pickguard BEFORE wiring. This wasn't obvious to me when I rewired my tele and I didn't have enough room to fit it in the small cavity.

The good thing is that it's hard to ruin electronics like pots and switches with soldering so long as you don't use to much heat. The main thing that frustrated me were ground connections, so if you're getting alot of noise that goes away when you touch something metal, you either have a bad ground connection or you need to reverse the output leads.

If you install single coils you might want to have a look at the shielding article on guitarnuts.com.

When I say insulted, I mean I keep hearing all these people saying that they went to the music store and tried
both MIMs and MIAs and FELT no difference nor HEARD any difference.
So they inevitebly decided to pay half the price and got the MIM.
Same guitar right....?
Only it costs less because the parts were shipped to Mexico to be assembled by cheap labor.

WRONG.

They are not nearly the same guitar.

So, if they were assembled with the same parts (absolutely 100% identical) but one was assembled by Mexicans in Mexico would it still not be as good as a Fender assembled in the US? If it were assembled in the US by Mexicans who had the same training that the US worker receives would it be as good? Or can only guitars made in the US by US companies and US workers be any good? What about ESP guitars made from high quality components in Japan by Japanese workers (e.g. their Voyager line or the Edwards line)? Are those any good or not being made in the US are they unable to be?

Just wondering because this rant has the same sound as those where folks claim that only "US" cars can be any good (of course they ignore the fact tham many cars from Ford or GM were made elsewhere or that Toyota, Honda, Mazda, BMW, etc. make cars in the US). Is it actually about the quality of the components and not about the nationality of the owners or workers?

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. George Bernard Shaw

Thump ThumP THUMP! (CitizenNoir bangs head against wall slowly) No, that was Ken's point. The bodies are from different blanks with larger pieces of wood and the electronics are different. I believe there is more attention to detail in the neck/fingerboard and frets in the American models as well. Machine vs hand dressed frets. I think that is what has sifted out of this discussion.