BOSS BR-1600???

Hi Cat,

When I want to check out that sort of stuff there's two sites that I check for information. One is Guitar World at Nerang on the Gold Coast (which may not be so very far from you) and the other is one of Perth's bigger stores, not so very far from me. They've got pretty good websites, and stock too by the look of things.

Guitar World

Kosmic

Looks like GW want around $2,360 and Kosmic $1,999 for that BOSS. So far so good - I've saved you 1k already (at very reasonable commission rates :wink: ). But how to judge why to buy one or the other? I looked at some on that list at Kosmic a year or two ago when I also wanted a "recorder for the kid" - only the kid was myself... They all seemed to offer a large range of built in effects that could be added at various stages of input or mix. Some had more input sockets than others, or additional features. But an accurate feature by feature quality comparison of them all was pretty much impossible to do in practice.

So I ditched any that had built in CD players on the basis that there's wasn't any mileage in paying for something that I already had on my computers. I also didn't need to record multiple tracks at one time - a couple would be fine. So that led me to the cheapest one, the ZOOM MRS8 at the bottom of the page at Kosmic. List price $799 but now obtainable for about $500. Drum machine that you can program hit by hit, play on pads with your fingers, or use one of several hundred patterns provided. Playable bass track. Heaps of effects, a few knobs and 8 nice sliders so that I can play at being a 'real' recording engineer..... :roll: Zoom's Site

And it works pretty well for the price too. The downside is the huge amount of stuff that you have to do by navigating through zillions of little menus and settings on a poxy little screen. And the 147 pages of manual that tell you how to do it all. It's a nerds paradise. OK once you get the hang of it, but involving a fair about of shouting and cursing along the way... At that level of gear, what you seem to get for the extra money (apart from a CD burner) is a few more knobs and some more inputs or outputs. But 'more knobs' is relative to the many things that you probably still need to squint at the little screens for. (Did I mention not being a big fan of squinting at little screens??).

The Zoom is obviously pretty much entry level, but it will do things like allow you to set a small range in a track you just recorded, press record, play along, and have it only punch in the new patch over the bar with your mistake. It also has a powerful little built in condenser mic for quick-n-dirty fast record. If I put the headphones on I can actually pick up conversations downstairs through it more clearly than with the unaided ear. Good for playing at Russian spy. Those sort of features impress clueless newbs like me, and gave hours of fun. I imagine that the BOSS does pretty similar things, but has more inputs and is generally a bit beefier and and better.

However, if I was buying now, I'd be tempted by one of the Protools packages and hooking it up to the computer. Something like this one perhaps:

DIGIDESIGN COMMAND 8 CONTROL SURFACE

If you're feeling generous, a guy I know has this one and seems pretty happy with it. The thing that I like about the way that he has it set up is that he's running it into a TV style screen that's about a metre or more wide. So he can SEE what he's doing! :D

DIGIDESIGN 003 FACTORY

What do you think would be the advantage over a BOSS unit over going the Protools/computer route?

Cheers,

Chris

Chirs, I don't think that DigiDesign is an option, unless you already have ProTools itself. The Boss units are independant/standalone recorders whereas the DD is, as far as I know, just an addition to make mixing on a protools setup easier.

Anyway: where will you be using it, and for what?

Hi IH,

As far as I can tell, the Protools software isn't sold separately here. You buy it bundled with a piece of hardware that acts as an interface between your gear and the computer. The simplest one is an Mbox2 Mini which just has a basic input box that connects to your computer via USB and allows a couple of things to be plugged in. That's about Aus$400+ which is pretty much what I'd expect to pay for just the software (actually it sounds quite cheap).

It saves plugging in through a sound card, which can have its own set of hassles, or recording onto a memory card and then using a card reader to get your info onto the computer - options that can apply with other setups. You know a lot more about all that than I do. :?

All these options seem to offer a mixture of hardware and software based control , and varying ways to apply effects. The tough part is assessing the end quality you'll get. With the Protools options, the more expensively featured the hardware is then the less frigging about with software menus and mouse clicks you have to do to get a similar result. And you get to feel all those knobs and sliders in your hand, which is probably quicker but certainly feels "Way Cooler....". :mrgreen:

I currently do almost no recording, but I'd like to do more. I'd also like to experiment with the sort of stuff you do - a mixture of audio recording and midi based writing, using virtual instrument plug-ins. I'm currently teaching msyelf Cubase, but a guy that I'm learning some stuff from uses Protools. If I was also running Protools we could swap files and work on the same projects more easily.

That's why I wonder about one of these Protools options for Cat's kids. I have the idea that he's been swatting up on Protools himself, so having them all use the same standard, but on different complexity and cost of gear, might be an option.

Cheers,

Chris

Hiya, Chris...

There's something you'd find suited to your needs. It's called "M-Box"...made by Digidesign/focusrite. Protools Free go with it. No sound card...works great for "your lonesome self" as opposed to a few inputs at the same time. THIS works great...

As far as Protools goes, in general...sure, there're other systems out there but PT's the ubiquitous one. Using something else is sort of like having 8 track when cassettes came out...beta vs VHS...or Mac (like me!) in the face of a world of PC.

You may consider adding a pickup onto your acoustic...because it'll save you all sorts of hassles if you go through a mic first. Just plug right into the M Box. The external mic will need EQing and you'll get phasing if you move around as you play. Besides, a mic in your guitar's the same cost as a free standing one...AND...it's easier to run through a digital tuner, for that matter.

Sunday chores beckon!

Cat

Hiya, Chris...

There's something you'd find suited to your needs. It's called "M-Box"...made by Digidesign/focusrite.
Cat

Really? You don't say... :P

Beat you to the post.... :mrgreen:

So what's your thinking about getting a BOSS unit for your kids? What does it offer that ZOOM stuff or Mbox doesn't?

Chris

Hiya, Chris...

You may consider adding a pickup onto your acoustic...because it'll save you all sorts of hassles if you go through a mic first. Just plug right into the M Box. The external mic will need EQing and you'll get phasing if you move around as you play. Besides, a mic in your guitar's the same cost as a free standing one...AND...it's easier to run through a digital tuner, for that matter.

Cat

That certainly looks like a good way to go. Most of my guitars already have pickups, so that's good. My main acoustic has an LR Baggs system that has two types of umm... something.... :wink: The blurb says:

LR Baggs has pioneered the concept of combining an undersaddle transducer (Ribbon Transducer) with a revolutionary bridge plate transducer (iBeam).

The iBeam Duet blends the iBeam and Ribbon Transducer signals with an onboard preamp featuring a very sophisticated set of controls for mixing and equalization. This is the ultimate in onboard acoustic amplification.

One day I'll work out what all that means, but for now I play it as an acoustic.

There's apparent a saying in Texas that describes somebody as "All hat, no cattle". That's me - "All gear, no talent". So I'll have to come to terms with mics eventually, as I also have a banjo, a sax and a clarinet to think about.

But back to the BOSS. On another thread you said:
You mentioned ProTools. Me, too. BEST of all worlds of what's out there. Bought the software and ancillary gear...but they came with freakin' PHONE book sized instructions, didn't they???

So I found a community college and PAINFULLY endured about 14 months of classes.

Given that you have Protools and some gear already, and will soon have a fully equipped studio at home, what's the advantage or attraction of a BOSS standalone unit for the kids as opposed to them using a 'junior version' of what you use? I'm not a full bottle on all this tech stuff....

Cheers,

Chris

Given that you have Protools and some gear already, and will soon have a fully equipped studio at home, what's the advantage or attraction of a BOSS standalone unit for the kids as opposed to them using a 'junior version' of what you use? I'm not a full bottle on all this tech stuff....

Cheers,

Chris

Oh! I see...nah! That setup wasn't for here it was for a studio I helped upgrade over in Southport (south of Brisbane). We're still in the actual "hammer & nails" bit for our own facilities.

My boys were having trouble with realtive volumes and EQings. Seeing as they played bass and six string LOUDLY out of separate amps...THIS thing (the M Box) forces them to "coexist"...they plug into this thing...it gets mixed properly...overdubs go into it...AND...(now here's the good part) the entire sound comes out of these TINY little speakers stuck inside the iMac. The iMac has a burner on it so they get to hear it later (when I ain't home) LOUDLY! THAT's when they jam to themselves and come up with better tweakings to whatever it is they are doing.

BESIDES...if you think that I'm gonna let a 14 year old and a 16 year old...with their friends...run loose in MY (mortgaged) studio...Chris...yer nutz! :lol:

Cat

My boys were having trouble with realtive volumes and EQings. Seeing as they played bass and six string LOUDLY out of separate amps...THIS thing (the M Box) forces them to "coexist"...they plug into this thing...it gets mixed properly...overdubs go into it...AND...(now here's the good part) the entire sound comes out of these TINY little speakers stuck inside the iMac. The iMac has a burner on it so they get to hear it later (when I ain't home) LOUDLY! THAT's when they jam to themselves and come up with better tweakings to whatever it is they are doing.

That's exactly what I had in mind - except that I didn't know that you already had it.

So what would the BOSS 1600 CD be for? What might it do that they can't already do with an MBox, an iMac and Protools? I'm missing something here... :?

BESIDES...if you think that I'm gonna let a 14 year old and a 16 year old...with their friends...run loose in MY (mortgaged) studio...Chris...yer nutz! :lol:

Cat

Oh, I'd never suggest that! :shock: That's why I liked the idea of them having a separate Mbox or Command 8. They can play on their gear, you can play on yours, but if you need to pass projects around it's simple.

Chris

Command 8 is only a control surface. Just FYI. Moving around doesn't pose any phasing problem when recording an acoustic unless you are using two mic. Moving around will change volume and tone with only one mic though which is a problem in itself. I personally prefer the sound of a mic over a transducer in an acoustic guitar.

Regarding the IBeam: from what I understand it's simply another contact pickup under the bridgeplate in addition to the one under the saddle. How this makes the sound better, I don't know. What I gather is that the under saddle tranducer directly picks up the string vibration while the "IBeam" picks up the movement of the soundboard from directly under the bridge.

Regarding the BR-1600, I have no clue. I don't own one and have never used one so, I'm pretty well useless with that. I've used ProTools and LE systems though and I like those. A used Digi 002 console might be another option. The only thing is, then you need a laptop or other computer. All in one units are nice for portability and force the users to learn proper gain structure. Anyhow, carry on. I'm just a monkey with a wrench to throw in the machine. :D

Command 8 is only a control surface. Just FYI.

Thanks, I think we all pretty much understood that - unless there's something I'm still not getting.... :) The way they seem to sell Protools in our local stores is bundled with a control surface or some kind of basic hardware interface. You can buy a real cheap one, or lash out and get a fancy one. Same software, just more knobs and plugs on your control gizmo, apparently... I already have computers, and I'm sure Cat does too.
Moving around doesn't pose any phasing problem when recording an acoustic unless you are using two mic. Moving around will change volume and tone with only one mic though which is a problem in itself. I personally prefer the sound of a mic over a transducer in an acoustic guitar.

Regarding the IBeam: from what I understand it's simply another contact pickup under the bridgeplate in addition to the one under the saddle. How this makes the sound better, I don't know. What I gather is that the under saddle tranducer directly picks up the string vibration while the "IBeam" picks up the movement of the soundboard from directly under the bridge.

Thanks for all that info Hueseph. :) My inferior talent is still the major limiting factor when it comes to sound production, but I do appreciate the opportunity to pick up more good technical information on the basis that I might need it one day. I've only recorded very simple stuff so far, and have found a mic has done the job for me too. But I'm sort of working my way through the options and trying to add knowledge as I go.

I'm also still trying to figure out why Cat would want a BOSS 1600 for his kids if they can already use Protools on an iMac by connecting through an Mbox.?? Presumably he had some feature in mind, but what's the extra that a BOSS unit might have? I don't know much about the BOSS either, but I do have one of its rivals - a Zoom. Perhaps it can do whatever he's looking for, and cheaper too? Perhaps not.

Thanks,

Chris

"The quality of the sound will fidget around, too."

No kiddin', Hueseph...it does.

Cat

The way they seem to sell Protools in our local stores is bundled with a control surface or some kind of basic hardware interface. You can buy a real cheap one, or lash out and get a fancy one. Same software, just more knobs and plugs on your control gizmo, apparently...

Forgot this querry, Chris...sorry 'bout that!

Protools can cost as much as $8000 for the software. But this comes BUNDLED with myriads of other company's features encompassing everything from reverb...noise gates...everything. Sure, Protools comes with lots standard...but they do seem to want to cater to folks that like other products. That's how they "stay on top"...sort of like how Bill Gates included a certain browser for no extra cost in recent PC softwares. ProTools is ubiquitous...

AN IMPORTANT NOTE ABOUT PIRATING:

If a person copies someone's software...and manage to end up with an income from whatever it was they did with it...the company can seize every dime they made!!!! In fact, when they get to the "signing the deal" bit...they can COUNT on it that they will be vetted to see if they used pirated software. The label's Legal Beagles will want to indemnify ITSELF from THEIR liability, too! :(

Cat

Hi again Cat,

Thanks for that extra info. Sorry for being a bit dim here (and accidentally hijacking your thread while I'm at it... :( ). I was thinking "two kids - two inputs, should be fine". But of course kids have mates who want a line in when they play along too...

Sigh... I was attempting to make useful sugestions, but I seem to be striking out here. Maybe that place in Nerang would have somebody there with experience of the comparative virtues of the various brands and models that they sell? Sometimes you get the sales person who just reads the back of the box to you, but often the bigger places do have a resident geek who actually knows something practical about the gear. I got a lot of useful tech info from the resident whizz at Kosmic last week, whereas the week before I got "Back of Box Guy" who could only read the price off his screen... Might be worth a call? I gotta make one useful suggestion... Throw me a line here cap'n, I'm sinking.... :mrgreen:

On the pirating issue, I'm pretty clean there. All my computers have legal copies of various flavours of Windows, the Office suite, Cubase, GuitarPro, Finale Notepad, etc are all fully bought or free legal downloads. Even the games were all paid for... Seems like I finally got around to being able to afford a conscience, or maybe I'm just getting old... :wink: Talking of which... I was looking through a site for an Aussie band last week and came across a line that said their album was "Recorded, mixed and produced by the eccentric old man Your name " :) So was that you? I mean, I know you're over 25 and quite possibly eccentric, so you fit the bill. :P

Cheers,

Chris

Command 8 is only a control surface. Just FYI.

Thanks, I think we all pretty much understood that - unless there's something I'm still not getting.... :)

OK, yep.... there WAS something I still wasn't getting... geez, I'm really going well on this thread.... :oops:

After having a better read through the details, I now understand what you were suggesting there Hueseph. It doesn't have all the specs that I thought. It does do most of what I thought it did, but not all.

Thanks for all you patience with me everybody. And thanks for all the info too.

Chris