My Studio Project.........

Very nice Mike. Maybe if I ask my fiance she could call your wife and I could come over to your house to play sometime! Untill then I'll just keep telling myself that "size doesn't matter"!
What is the "standard" way you are talking about?
The "rule of thumb" (as I've heard from many sources over the years) is that the distance between the two monitors should be the same as the distance between each monitor and your head (in the mixing position). So my current setup has my monitors sitting about 35" apart, and my head is generally about 35" away from each monitor when I am in front of my mixer working.

I think you're the only person I've ever seen who sets his up the way that I used to. Mind if I use you as a reference? :D

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Well, I don't know what to say about the monitors. The only argument that I can see about doing our way would be that the waves are bouncing off each other. For some reason I like it this way, so I'll stick with it for now.

So basically you're saying that you use the triangle type method?

Have a good one.

Mike

Yes... I used to have them set up pretty much the way you do. But when I moved into the apartment that I live in now (about a year and a half ago) I switched to the "triangle method" because I was told by so many people (who were more experienced and knowledgable than I) that it was better - so I figured I'd give it a try. I'm getting ready to move again at the end of the month though, and I've made up my mind to put them back the way I had them before. I like how much easier it is to distinguish the over-all stereo image, and I have far-field monitors if I want to hear a more "standard" representation of things.

In my opinion it makes more sense to spread them out. There are so many circumstances where you really need to hear what's going on with each side individually - stereo effects (you want to hear how the effect is reacting with each side), eq per track (sometimes it pays to eq certain stereo tracks differently on one side in order to achieve a better sonic balance), the list could go on!

I'll post some pics after I get settled in at my new place...

~Maxx

I had never realized so much thought went into monitor placement. BUt then again I probably should be surprised, a great deal of thought has to go into most things in a studio project.

*By the way Mike, I'm liking the new avatar.

In my opinion it makes more sense to spread them out. There are so many circumstances where you really need to hear what's going on with each side individually - stereo effects (you want to hear how the effect is reacting with each side), eq per track (sometimes it pays to eq certain stereo tracks differently on one side in order to achieve a better sonic balance), the list could go on!

I'll post some pics after I get settled in at my new place...

I couldn't of said it better myself. It's weird too because when I'm playing back a track looking at the monitor (LCD) the sound feels like it it is coming from right in front of me, not from the side. And yes, using the triangle method makes it hard to distinguish (for me anyway) certain sounds from the speakers that are surrposed to be seperate.

Atleast we know we're not alone with our madness! :lol:

I look forward to seeing your set up. :)

Have a good one!

Mike

Thanks Paul. Been a life longer....... It finally paid off! :lol:

I had never realized so much thought went into monitor placement. BUt then again I probably should be surprised, a great deal of thought has to go into most things in a studio project.

That's one thing that's always bugged me about this hobby. If you learn the basics from scratch like I did (no PC back then!) with nobody to advise you, and then get a chance to talk to an "expert", you usually end up finding out that you're doing everything wrong. The most valuable thing I've learned since I bought my first analog 4 track way back when is to always keep an open mind. Don't be afraid to try things your own way - and don't snub the "experts" either. They usually have pretty good reasons for the way they do things. It's easy to get caught up in the "elitist" philosophy where everything has to be "just so". I went through that phase - and found myself working more on my equipment than with it.
Atleast we know we're not alone with our madness!
Well spoken my friend!

All the best!

~Maxx

I strongly suggest *against* placing monitors the way you do now. It is indeed easier to check whats going on in one side of the stereo image but you can use headphones much easier for that. When actually mixing a song on your monitors you'll end up with too little spreading as it sounds way more spread on your setup then what most users have it. In other words: from that angle and that distance the two images are so far much apart that it is simply impossible to create a mix that sounds remotely as good on any other system.

Or at it's most basic: it doesn't matter how it sounds in the studio, it matters how it sounds in the rest of the world. :D

O.K. then.......... Why does the music sound like it's coming from in front of me then?

I've had quite a few people sit in my chair and say, "Wow, you can hear everything!".

You say "the rest of the world"........ O.K......... In the car (Left Right Front and Rear), headphones (iPod or whatever Left Right) and various other listening methods have a left and a right speakers configuration. IMO, when you go to a concert, the speakers are on each side of the stage (often not on the stage but further off the stage thus creating a more defined Left and Right).

When I placed my monitors where I did, I took into consideration all the various listening methods and ended up with what I have now.

Also, wouldn't backing up in my chair be the same as the "triangle" method thus creating the best of both worlds?

For the record, I'm not starting an argument here. I'm trying to understand "why" I should be doing it the other way.

Thanks

Mike

O.K. then.......... Why does the music sound like it's coming from in front of me then?

Because you have brains. Two seperate signals coming from opposite directions are mixed as one. If it is split left/right you get a proper sense of where what is coming from, if it is front/rear and centered exactly you will be unable to tell from where it is coming. Compare it with headphones, the ammount of detail you hear is insane but you just can't make a proper mix on headphones.
I've had quite a few people sit in my chair and say, "Wow, you can hear everything!".

Yes, I'm sure they did. However, you are creating that detail not by changing the mix but by greatly seperating the monitors. In a setup using two monitors you have two extremes: total seperation (your setup) or exactly next to each other. Ideally you want to have a perfect mix if you go in between those extremes, in such a way that it still sounds good when you move the speakers further apart or closer together.
Also, wouldn't backing up in my chair be the same as the "triangle" method thus creating the best of both worlds?

Yes, assuming you change the angle of the monitors towards you.
For the record, I'm not starting an argument here. I'm trying to understand "why" I should be doing it the other way.

The reason I'm pretty strong about this is quite simple: I did it your way and when I had some conservatory teachers informally listen to my music in their studios I wish I was never born. So now I keep the monitors closer together and create the width of the track internally in Cubase. This creates atleast average results in every possible setup. Any track you produce might sound rather thin if the listener has a lesser-spreading of his speakers himself.

And ofcourse this is just my opinion. I'm not saying you should do what I say, I'm just offering an alternative viewpoint. Your studio is beginning to look pretty darn serious and it would be a shame if you later discovered that the mere placement of monitors had a more direct impact on the quality of the mix then you might currently believe.

As a footnote: the importance of all of this is ofcourse pretty subjective. A friend of mine recently mistook a cello for a trumpet: I'm sure many, many people don't really notice the difference just like most won't ever notice that tiny EQ'ing of the hi-hat or things like that. You could even argue it might be more effective to spend more hours practicing instead of moving monitors around. All that aside, a slightly lesser spreading would be preferably in my opinion.

I did it your way and when I had some conservatory teachers informally listen to my music in their studios I wish I was never born.
What was so bad about it?

I think I read that story from you before...... (IIRC) wasn't it because you didn't have quality monitors?

Arjen - That had to have been the most intelligent, down-to-earth post concerning monitor placement that I've ever heard! I do intend to go about reverting my set-up to its previous state (monitors on the sides), but I must say that if I'm ever on this subject again I will be sure to quote you so as not to lead anyone astray. One thing I probably should have mentioned before is that I also use a pair of far-field monitors, which I reference frequently in order to keep a line on the "real" mix (ie what it sounds like on an actual home stereo). What you said about getting a false representation of the stereo spread makes perfect sense. However, I feel inclined to point out that studio monitors are not made for the purpose of representing what the rest of the world will hear. It's like tasting the batter before you bake the cake. We know that everyone and their dog has the bass and treble cranked on thier home stereos, and that every speaker, i-pod, computer, discman, living-room, bedroom, office, and car sound different from eachother, and do a thousand ugly things to destroy our hard work. So only a great fool would try to make a studio set-up sound like everyone elses home stereo. It really isn't even supposed to sound pleasing to the ear as far as that goes. What we're looking for is balance I guess. That's why we use flat response monitors, parametric eq, compression, and all those groovy little toys that the general listener doesn't have a clue about. I'm getting off track here... But the point is that, having tried both methods, I think there are enough strong points on either side to consider both valid. The main thing in either case is that we should be aware of what we might not be hearing as well as what we are hearing no matter what kind of mixing environment we create. In the end there is only one absolute...
...it doesn't matter how it sounds in the studio, it matters how it sounds in the rest of the world.

Mike: The problem was that the instruments (piano, various stringed instruments) weren't properly placed. As they were so close together, and some a few of the instruments had to fight for the same spot (like voice, guitar and piano do in a pop-song) it came out as a total blur. You had to focus real hard to seperate the tracks, making listening to it rather fatiqueing. Initially I did thought the problem were the speakers but that idea turned out to be wrong when I got myself some monitors.

Maxx: Absolutely true, the various processes that make up the Act Of Mixing can't all be done on one setup. For example, to check individual tracks I use headphones instead of my monitors wereas Mike's 'sideways' setup is probably accurate enough for that purpose. I do have one final argument why I won't use Mike's setup any time soon again though: there ain't enough room anymore for the monitors to be there. ;)

Here are some updated pics.

I moved some things around (for the better) and added some software. I upgraded from Sonar 4 Studio to Sonar 5 Producer and also got Project 5 V2 and Dimention Pro. They are well worth the money (I got a killer deal on them). For the past couple of days I've been messin' with all the different sounds............ and I haven't even scratched the surface yet!!!!!!

Up close -

From a far -

I thought you said slight changes?! That Mountain Dew can probably pushed your mixing capabilities up a good ten notches! :shock: Though I usually position mine on the right. :mrgreen:

Out of curiosity... What kind of keyboard is that?

Thanx for sharin'!

Nice setup Mike.

Answering your Q above: The recommended setup for near field monitors is an equilateral triangle with your head and the monitors at the three vertices. The monitors are often toed-in a bit too.