The Instrumental Thread

Wow! 8)

Thanks so much for all the help guys.

Apologies for hogging so much space on the thread, but it's a great opportunity to learn. I also think that if I'm not shy about asking all my dumb newbie questions, then maybe others will benefit from all your great suggestions too. I sure hope so.

I guess my first stumbling block when I look at TAB like that is to try and relate it to how I usually work.

Usually I have some sheet music in a songbook (old fashioned guy - I buy the books... :P ) and sometimes the pages also have TAB below. I tend use the music rather than the TAB, which I try to just look at if my fingering looks like they're getting out of shape.

The other way I work is to pick a key, and then improvise around a chord progression or what you might call a scale or chord pattern. I probably actually spend more time noodling around like that, than any other way of playing. Uusually it's with chords, but if I do try melody lines, it's improvising pretty much in the way DemoEtc describes here:
.. going from one clustered area of notes where the fingering is logical and comfortable, to the next cluster where things make sense in some sort of scalar or chordal pattern.

So when I see this piece, the first thing I think is "What key's it in? What's the underlying musical pattern he's following? What chords would the rhythm player be using here? And where on the neck are the little patterns of notes he's using." Which fingers to use should sort of of follow on after that.

The TAB seems to use a 'paint by numbers' idea, which I'm not used to, and all the familiar stuff about time signature, keys, chords etc isn't there. But I guess you can sort of work backwards or just 'feel' it when you're used to working that way?

I'm not used to 'reverse engineering' from listening to songs, or using TABs. So I'm going to be slow and stupid for a bit, and then the penny should drop - with a bit of luck! Obviously, the skills are going to be very useful, once I've got the idea. I do own a CD with the Shadows playing the song (which I never got around to listening to... :oops: ) so this is an absolutely perfect way for me to learn a HEAP of stuff. I could just try and ape the pattern, but it seems like a perfect opportunity to learn a whole lot more about why it works that way.

Sleutelbos,

Thanks so much for the post about 3 ways of doing that section (I wrote out a 'thank you' reply yesterday, but for some reason it's not here - dinner must have come between writing and hitting the 'post' button :oops: ). And your sound instruction clip is terrific - thanks so much for that.

DemoEtc,

Thanks for your post. I could relate to all your thoughts (being a fan of orchestral stuff too) and your thoughts about fingering were excllent, because they made me feel that I'm on the right track - just not quite seeing all the map yet. :)

(BTW - I'm very impressed with what I've heard so far of your playing and your wife's singing. Will be going back for more soon. :) )

Tele,

Thanks for the '6 note melody' insight. It seemed to be heading that way, when I started writing down what notes were involved, but I haven't got far enough through to really see what's happening. I downloaded another TAB and that was different. Mostly it was choosing a different string for the same notes, but in some spots the notes were actually different. :? So I'm not clear yet which notes are part of a simple key or chord pattern and which might be 'accidentals' or whatever.

To be honest I've spent more time typing than practicing so far... :roll: ... so I'm looking forward to working some more on it. Unfortunately, I'll be out of action for a few days now. I have to go out and do the weekly food shopping in a few minutes, and then friends are arriving to stay for the weekend. I also need to hook up my recording mike and stuff again, whcih has been dismantled for a while. Then I can post short clips too. So I'll get out of everybody's hair for a while!! :D

Thanks for all the great help. Looking forward to hearing more of everybody's attempts and questions.

Cheers,

Chris

...
Ah... but that's the key question for us beginners though - which are the proper fingers and where are the proper positions? You've said that is the case, but then slid away from saying what they are. I have fingers of normal size and flexibility.
Actually, fingers positions will vary according the scale you will use to solo.
Normally, for each scale you get some sort of a "box" position where all the notes of the scale are. It usually spread over 5 frets on all six strings.
So if your soloing over an Am chord, you take an Am scale position (i.e. at the 5th fret) and you're centered. If you're in Gm, you bring the "box" position 2 frets down (from the initial Am-5th fret position) and so on according the chord you're soloing over.
This is very simplisticaly said but that's the idea, plus there are a lot of variations of this concept.
I would strongly suggest taking a scale chart and familiarize yourself with the various "box" positions.
I'm not very knowledgable in musical theory, somebody else is more likely to help you out better than me on this subject.

Also, one thing to consider, the sound of the note you will play. The D note on the 3rd fret-2nd string is the same note as the one on the 7th fret-3rd string, but they have a different sound even if they have the same pitch. It's a physical phenomena due to the strings size difference, their placement on the fretboard, the distance between the fretted note and the bridge, etc...
This is even more important when you want to reproduce the sound of an original song, as is the case here. If you want to copy as close as possible the sound of the original artist, you got to pick the same notes at the same place. (besides all the other considerations like the type of guitar used, the amplification, the recording method, etc...)
I'd agree with that, but as NoteBoat says "Practice doesn't make Perfect, it makes Permanent". The reason I want to be 'cerebral' about it at this stage is that I don't want to entrench a whole heap of bad or pointless habits, even if they seem to work in the short term. I'd rather have some ideas about what the 'correct' approach is, even if I choose to reject or alter elements of it at some stage.
I don't think there is one and unique correct approach to playing guitar.
From one teacher to another, you'll find they offer, or favor, different techniques thus showing a different "correct" approach.
Your own style and ways around the guitar will favor one approach over an other one.
And that is not counting the music style you want to play, jazz, rock/blues, classical, etc... They all require different techniques on how you position your fingers on the fretboard, how you hold the guitar, etc...
My thinking about this was that a solo should have some sort of logical 'centre' as far as the fingering goes. A sort of 'home base' that you return to and get set from again after you've digressed up or down the neck a bit.

When I improvise - which is what I mostly do - I know where I am and where I'm going. I know the patterns that I'll be following, so I always know where the centre is and how far away from it I am. I suppose you usually (but perhaps not inevitably) start at or near a centre and eventually work your way back.

But when I'm attempting somebody else's work I don't 'see' that pattern yet. No doubt I'll pick up the knack of it with practice. But this really is my first go at this kind of exercise, on that part of the neck. So it's all still bandit country out there right now... :wink:
The more I read you, the more I feel you really need to have a good look at the scales and their different positions on the fretboard. (why don't I take this advice for myself? :? )
First few notes sound OK when I play them though, so that's something.
There you go, you're on your way! :)
Thanks for all the tips, and also for posting your great clip - something to aim for.

Thanks to you for these nice words on my clip.

Cheers

Yves

I guess my first stumbling block when I look at TAB like that is to try and relate it to how I usually work.

Usually I have some sheet music in a songbook (old fashioned guy - I buy the books... :P ) and sometimes the pages also have TAB below. I tend use the music rather than the TAB, which I try to just look at if my fingering looks like they're getting out of shape.
Here's the difference between the scholar type and the "do-it-yourself" type. (or the auditive and visual type, but that's another discussion altogether. :lol: )
Sheet music bear little resemblance with the guitar fretboard while tabs reflects where the fingers are suppose to be on the fretboard. You get more musical information with music sheets but you get more guitar information with tabs.
It depends on where you're coming from for your liking of one or the other.
The other way I work is to pick a key, and then improvise around a chord progression or what you might call a scale or chord pattern. I probably actually spend more time noodling around like that, than any other way of playing. Uusually it's with chords, but if I do try melody lines, it's improvising pretty much in the way DemoEtc describes here:
That is a very good way to get the feel of the fretboard and create some finger memory of where the notes are on the fretboard.
I'm not used to 'reverse engineering' from listening to songs, or using TABs. So I'm going to be slow and stupid for a bit, and then the penny should drop - with a bit of luck! Obviously, the skills are going to be very useful, once I've got the idea. I do own a CD with the Shadows playing the song (which I never got around to listening to... :oops: ) so this is an absolutely perfect way for me to learn a HEAP of stuff. I could just try and ape the pattern, but it seems like a perfect opportunity to learn a whole lot more about why it works that way.
This is the most effective way to create an ear to finger memory.
By figuring out the notes of a melody just by listening to it you'll create an "intelligent" understanding of where the notes are on the board. After some of that practice, you'll start seeing where the player is positioning his fingers without even looking at a music sheet or tab. And when improvising, just by hearing the base chord, you'll know right away what pattern you should be using to solo.

I'll never diminish the importance of music theory, even though I never really studied it myself, but I really think that listening to records and trying to pick up what another guitarist is doing by ear is the most effective way to understand a guitar fretboard. It sinks in deeper.

HI again Yves,

Thanks for taking the time to post so many useful thoughts. This is turning into a very good exercise, and I'm learning a lot from it. :)
Normally, for each scale you get some sort of a "box" position where all the notes of the scale are. It usually spread over 5 frets on all six strings.
So if your soloing over an Am chord, you take an Am scale position (i.e. at the 5th fret) and you're centered. If you're in Gm, you bring the "box" position 2 frets down (from the initial Am-5th fret position) and so on according the chord you're soloing over.
This is very simplisticaly said but that's the idea, plus there are a lot of variations of this concept.

I've been working along two separate paths - one is the scale patterns which you mention. So far I'm strong at the usual starting one - Cmaj scale in the first position, and reasonable up and down some of the strings. I get progressively weaker as I try less popular keys, or positions further up the neck. I get the idea, I just need a lot more practice yet before it all sticks. The scale pattern knowledge also seems to help a lot with working out melody lines. Again, I'm pretty OK with that if I just use one or two strings, but it's not yet 'natural' to run across the neck, as well as up and down, unless I'm in that 'first position'. Just more practice needed I think.

The second way I'm working relates more to the key you're in and shows you where the important notes are in relation to your root note. Once you've 'got' it you can use it for any key or scale. But both methods need plenty of practice to master, so I'm still a fair way from where I want to be.
Also, one thing to consider, the sound of the note you will play. The D note on the 3rd fret-2nd string is the same note as the one on the 7th fret-3rd string, but they have a different sound even if they have the same pitch. It's a physical phenomena due to the strings size difference, their placement on the fretboard, the distance between the fretted note and the bridge, etc...

Yes, it can definitely sound different. Sometime it seems to comes down to a choice between the sound you'd like best and the position/pattern that fits the piece best. I'm sure that the more experienced I get the quicker the choosing will get, but in the meantime it's interesting to experiment - it just takes me a long time to put it all together at the moment. :)
The more I read you, the more I feel you really need to have a good look at the scales and their different positions on the fretboard. (why don't I take this advice for myself? :? )

:D :D I don't always take my own advice all that well either.. :roll:
This is the most effective way to create an ear to finger memory.
By figuring out the notes of a melody just by listening to it you'll create an "intelligent" understanding of where the notes are on the board. After some of that practice, you'll start seeing where the player is positioning his fingers without even looking at a music sheet or tab. And when improvising, just by hearing the base chord, you'll know right away what pattern you should be using to solo.

I'll never diminish the importance of music theory, even though I never really studied it myself, but I really think that listening to records and trying to pick up what another guitarist is doing by ear is the most effective way to understand a guitar fretboard. It sinks in deeper.

I understand what you mean. I'm also quite a fan of the "learn by looking/listening and doing" style as opposed to a more academic "by the book" method. Over the years I taught myself quite a few things using the general approach you talk about. For instance, I looked carefully at how houses were built to see if I could figure out how to build one without learning the trades and professions involved in the conventional way. Helping demolishing a couple of houses helped a lot, as I was able to see - in reverse - how they were built. I also experimented with a few renovations. And I did indeed learn enough to be able to completely design and build my own house. So I know that style works for me too.

But with music, I've made a conscious decision to try and learn the theory as I go. I'd like to be able to do it both ways this time - forwards and backwards as it were. I have quite a few friends who have some sort of musical ability or background. Some are 'self taught' and have little or no theory, whilst others are Conservatorium trained.

I've noticed that all the 'do it yourself' types tend to have a slightly wistful tone when they talk about theory. There always seems to be a sort of nagging doubt that they've missed out on something useful, and a part of them rather wishes they'd persisted through the confusing and irritating stuff. I admit that I still feel a little of this about building, even though the builders and trades people who've seen my house say that the job I did was as good or better than the pros. And on the other hand, none of the theory trained musicians I know have ever said to me "I wish I hadn't wasted the time bothering to learn theory"....

So this time I've promised myself that I'll do both - get the theory down, and do the improvise and 'pick it up by ear' thing. I've got along way to go yet, but it sems to be paying off, and I'm finding it both fun and interesting, so it's all good. 8)

Thanks again for the tips, and for the great clip. I now have your clip, the clip in Greybeard's package, and the original Shadows version. So if I listen to all three a few more times I'm hoping to slowly pick up what's happening and also what the subtle differences are between the versions. Good stuff! :D

Now I probably need to shut up and get on with it! And maybe come back in a while with some sort of result . :shock:

Actually, to be realistic, I may not be back all that quickly. My wife is now on holiday until the end of January, as is my son, so I might be risking divorce if I spend it all fiddling with guitar and playing Sleepwalk clips 200 times... :twisted: I'll be sneaking a bit in here and there though...

Cheers,

Chris

I might be risking divorce if I spend it all fiddling with guitar and playing Sleepwalk clips 200 times...
I hear you Chris, loud and clear.
It actually happened to me. I wasn't that well aware back then I guess. :(

I don't have much theory myself, I'm the "do it yourself" type.
I did learn the basics when I was a kid but let it all go. I do regret it at times.
There's no question about it, learning music theory is a damn good asset to have when you play music.
It helps you understand what you're doing, instead of just feeling it.

And like anything else that needs learning, it takes a lot of practice to master it, be it the theory and/or the instrument.

The trick is to keep the balance between the technical and the soul.
There are lots of damn good technical guitar players out there but they're missing the soul, while others are very emotional in there playing but are total sloppy players. So a good mix between the two is the ideal.
And you seem to have the right attitude to get that balance.

Go for it, have fun and enjoy! (and don't forget the missus in the process :wink: )

I'll monitor the thread if you have any questions, I'll be around.

Cheers, Yves

The trick is to keep the balance between the technical and the soul.
There are lots of darn good technical guitar players out there but they're missing the soul, while others are very emotional in there playing but are total sloppy players. So a good mix between the two is the ideal.

Yes, that mix thing is just what I'd like to achieve. At the moment, when my Con. trained friends start talking, I feel a bit like I did when I went to France and tried to get by with my school boy French. I had some idea, but I really couldn't keep up with the conversation. And if I sit down with the 'jammers' I don't yet have the ear or the skill to keep up either. :wink: All to be expected at this stage, but I look forward to the day when I can pick up the guitar and 'talk' to either group. 8)
I'll monitor the thread if you have any questions, I'll be around.

Cheers, Yves

Much appreciated. :) I always hope that by posting my experiences that others can also benefit from my questions and the answers I get. Unfortunately, I like to chat on a bit, so most of them probably get bored or scared off long before I get to the point.. :P :oops:

Cheers,

Chris

The trick is to keep the balance between the technical and the soul.
There are lots of darn good technical guitar players out there but they're missing the soul, while others are very emotional in there playing but are total sloppy players. So a good mix between the two is the ideal.

Something like 'no technique and no soul'? :P

The trick is to keep the balance between the technical and the soul.
There are lots of darn good technical guitar players out there but they're missing the soul, while others are very emotional in there playing but are total sloppy players. So a good mix between the two is the ideal.

Something like 'no technique and no soul'? :P

Oh no !

Actually i am thinking of mixing technique and soul in the Braun automatic electrically operated mixer.

I have been looking at your postings and it Looks like its not as advanced as I thought it would be and Extremely educational for us mere beginners
great lads well done keep it up, the clips sound great to

The trick is to keep the balance between the technical and the soul.
There are lots of darn good technical guitar players out there but they're missing the soul, while others are very emotional in there playing but are total sloppy players. So a good mix between the two is the ideal.

Something like 'no technique and no soul'? :P

Oh no !

Actually i am thinking of mixing technique and soul in the Braun automatic electrically operated mixer.
Don't do that, you'll be missing the whole point.
Use a bowl and a whip and make it come to a thick foam by hand.
Now that's Soul'N'Technique. :P

is this exercise finished or is it coffee break

I think basically it's 'as we go;' whenever someone has a version, they'll post it. Still gotta work on mine!

As I started this thread and haven't had a chance to do anything, I felt very guilty so I forced myself to make a little time for a very quick and pretty basic recording:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=602490

For the interested, the guitar was my Washburn HB35 through Dany EQ, Dany Daddy-O (boost, no gain) and a lightly set Dany Surf & Turf. Other than normalisation, I only added (too little) reverb in the mix.

The backing track is courtesy of Goran Tangring.

Very nice Greybeard! 8) :D I love the whole laid-back vibe. :)

Dan

That is damn nice Greybeard! 8)
Very well played and very nice lullaby like melody. :)
Top grade buddy! :wink: