I find it quite strange that we usually associate a piece of music with an emotion. But, in actuallity, a song cannot really feel sad or happy ect. Those are just emotions that we attach to music that might be played slowly and softly or quickly and with an upbeat tempo. Generally, if we hear an excellent "sad" song (e.g. played slowly with minor tonality) we are likely to feel quite exhilirated. In fact, if a sad piece of music actually made us sad, I doubt we would listen to it.
So, my questions are: Why do you think we associate emotion with music so frequently? If a composition cannot literally exude sadness or happiness, then why do we lable them with these emotions? Is it not possible that what may seem to be a "happy" song, could actually have been intended to be "sad" by the composer? If so, isnt it somewhat innefficient or inaccurate (for lack of a better word) to describe a piece of music with emotions?
*I know, its heavy and somewhat abstract. But, I think this would make an interesting debate*
At this time I would like to tell you that NO MATTER WHAT...IT IS WITH GOD. HE IS GRACIOUS AND MERCIFUL. HIS WAY IS IN LOVE, THROUGH WHICH WE ALL ARE. IT IS TRULY -- A LOVE SUPREME --. John Coltrane
Weird, I usually agree with you but on this subject I couldnt be further from you. Songs, to me, DO have an emotion. I can hear a few notes and man that just sounds so devestatingly sad.. or hear another few and I can feel the joy in those notes. Personally, there are times I do listen to sad songs. Man, I am a rough and tumble guy but when I am sad I just wanna cry my eyes out. Songs do that for me. When I got divorced, even though I hated the witch, I listed to every sad song I could get my hands on. They are sad songs. The lyrics are sad, the sound is sad (Mostly minors), and it just makes you wanna go out and hug your dog.
Maybe I misunderstood you, but on first read.. I think you need to reconsider.. And I dont mean that in a spiteful way.. Gimme a hug Voodoo. :lol:
Geoo
“The hardest thing in life is to know which bridge to cross and which to burn” - David Russell (Scottish classical Guitarist. b.1942)
I think good music can engender emotional reactions in the listener as intended by the composer provided the listener is equipped to respond to the music. Otherwise the subtleties of expression engineered by the composer will be lost on the listener.
If I listen to a Japanese ensemble playing traditional instruments, I won't respond in the way the composer intended as, having no training in how to listen to such music, I'm not equipped to. Instead I may respond in ways unintended by the composer. I may be transported by the exotic sounding tonal quality of the instruments and strangely unfamiliar intervals. But that certainly wasn't the composer's intention. Those sounds are not at all exotic to his intended audience.
But apart from that, I will respond emotionally to music in a more or less positive way. The greater and more positive the emotional effect, the better I will judge the music to be. The emotions must always be positive. A sad song must convey the beauty of sadness (which is positive), never the sadness itself (which is negative), otherwise, as you say, we'd never listen to it.
Without emotion, music would just be sound.
We have an emotional reaction to music.
But it's not true that songs themselves convey a particular emotion, so much as we react to them.
One of the saddest songs I know is a very "upbeat" tune, with a bouncy rhythm and a very catchy, bright happy lyric. But I associate with my grandfather's death for reasons that are entirely my own. Play the tune and I'll cry, every time. Not many people have that reaction to "Mac the Knife."
Most of us react to music with rather predictable emotions. There's a cultural connection between "happy music" and "happy feelings." But move to a culture with a musical tradition to which you are unfamiliar, and while you will have emotional reactions to the music, more than likely they won't be quite the culturally appropriate reaction of someone native to the tradition.
As to the "why" of it all. It's pretty clear that there's a lot going on, but it's not well understood.
A good starting bibliography for someone really interested in the topic can be found here
When it comes right down to it, science has no explainatory power over this realm because both emotion and music remain largely undefined.
We know what emotions "feel" like, but we really don't understand what they are. There are literally dozens of competing theories on the topic and they all more or less fail in some way. Some fail more spectacularly than others, but they are all insufficient in key ways.
Likewise, music remains something of a mystery to science. Physically it's just connected sound. But not all connected sound is musical. We can explain some areas of music with theories of tonal relationships, but then some jazz guy will come along, play something that breaks all the rules, but is none-the-less clearly music and appreciated as such.
So trying to talk about two things, neither of which is understood well enough to define, let alone measure and study, is pretty much a guarantee of lots of people spouting opinion with no one actually answering the question of what they're talking about.
What is clear is this -- there does not seem to be a non-culturally bound relationship between music and emotional response. Music has something tto do with language, and so do emotions. But beyond those slim relationships, the "why" of it all is beyond our understanding at this point in time.
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST
An interesting topic indeed.
A composition may not inherently exude emotions as a composition is
just a bunch of figures. However as soon as one sings or plays it,
his/her emotions (to whatever degree) are attached to the composition.
So, I am not sure if it would ever be possible to separate a
composition and the emotions attached to it.
Why does music invoke emotions?
I found this question interesting. According to the link below music and memory
are closely tied together.
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro99/web1/Sancar.html
"... From this, it may be speculated that there is a strong connection
between memory centers of the brain as well as those that process music."
This makes sense as most (if not all) of our memories are tagged with some form
of happy or sad emotion.
Latest addition: Cover of "Don't Panic" by Coldplay
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=502670
...music and memory are closely tied together. This makes sense as most (if not all) of our memories are tagged with some form of happy or sad emotion.Well, duh. That's what all the emotion of music comes from, IMO.
For a long time I'd cry every time I heard the song "Jesus Loves Me." It was played on the organ at the funeral of a good friend who was killed, and the memory came rushing back whenever I heard it. Couldn't fight it. Lots of slow, "sad," minor songs make me happy. I got a CD a while back, "A Steel Guitar Tribute To Lynyrd Skynyrd." All instrumental, it had great stuff on it. When I heard "The Ballad Of Curtis Loew," which is supposed to be a sad, bluesy song, it was so well done that I felt a thrill in my chest and exclaimed "SWEET!" when the last notes faded out. I was just blown away by the musicians' skill and how well everything fit together. Really well done blues always hits me that way, too. Never gets me down.
"A cheerful heart is good medicine."
This is the way I look at it. If someone writes a song and it is say a sad song with some sad enotion to it etc, The song may mean something to me cause at one time I may have went through a similar thing in my life so therefor I can associate with that song and it's meaning.
Music is an expression of emotions. That's what I do when I play. There may be days I feel kinda down so I may play sad/slow songs etc to match my mood and help me release that type of energy. There are days when i'm happy and i will play lots of fast upbeat tempo type songs.
To me, music is a release of my emptions. So when i play guitar it relaxes me and eases me, if that makes sense.
Assuming no lyrics are used to set a mood: music on itself doesn't have emotion, nor is it a method of communication. However, our simple primitive brains do react in certain, rather consistent, ways to certain combination of notes, movenements and sounds. For example, making slow but big bends with an equally slow vibrato would be seen as highly emotion, whereas the same notes played with slides would be far less emotional. Playing the A-major chord sounds more happy and alive then the A-minor chord, even though there is no real reason why we react so predictably to such relatively minor differences in sound.
As such my personal believe is that ultimately the best music will be composed and performed by computers. And my estimated guess is that this will be happening within the next thirty years.
A lot depends on the artist's interpretation of the song and a great deal on how you the listener are connected to the the song emotionally.
For instance:
"How Do You Mend A Broken Heart" written and a hit by the Bee Gees :
Very good powerful song, its ok
"How Do You Mend A Broken Heart" covered by Al Green :
Sends the hairs up on the back of my neck and sometimes you can feel tears welling up because
his rendition of it draws you right inside the song.
Chris
The guitar is all right John but you'll never make a living out of it! (John Lennon's Aunt Mimi)
It's always been my opinion that songwriters write to express an emotion - not always, I mean there are so many blues songs around, heck, every bluesman can't be miserable 100% of the time, or they'd be too depressed to pick up a guitar....
Take a listen to "Tears In Heaven" by Eric Clapton - we all know the story behind that one, right? But what emotion does it actually draw from you? It's a beautiful poignant song, but it makes me feel relief that my kids are all right....
When I write a song, I'm writing it from my point of view....if it strikes a chord (sorry, should have had a bad pun alert there...) with someone else and makes them think, "Yeah, been there, done that," then I've got my point across - but not all songs are born from genuine emotion, I've written songs around a stray phrase I've picked up or overheard...
I guess what I'm trying to say is, emotion is in the ear of the listener - the same song can bring out different emotions from different people. Most emotion, IMO, is emotion by association - linking a particular song to a person or event....it's not the emotion that was put into the song, but rather the emotion the listener gets out of the song.
:D :D :D
Vic
"Sometimes the beauty of music can help us all find strength to deal with all the curves life can throw us." (D. Hodge.)
I guess what I'm trying to say is, emotion is in the ear of the listener
When this thread first started I was completely anti the quoted thought. But I was in the shower yesterday thinking about this (Yes, I need a life) and it occured to me. Take the same idea and apply it to a common joke. Tell a blonde bimbo joke to a bunch of college guys and it probably will make them laugh their butts off. Tell the same joke to a group of blonde ladies and you wont get the same response.
Music is the same way I think.
Geoo
“The hardest thing in life is to know which bridge to cross and which to burn” - David Russell (Scottish classical Guitarist. b.1942)
However, our simple primitive brains do react in certain, rather consistent, ways to certain combination of notes, movenements and sounds.
Arjen, what you are describing is the emotional effects of sound, not music, on a part of our brain which is programmed to respond to such basic aural stimulii. A mother's anxious response to the cry of a child, being a classic example of this phenomenon.
You asked "Why does a minor chord sound sadder than a major?" The most widely accepted explanation is that it's simply because of the semitone clash between the minor third note and the root's 4th overtone, which is a major third. It causes not so much a feeling of sadness but a feeling of disturbance - as all dissonance does. Why does a wide slow vibrato bend sound more emotional than a slide? Who knows? but whatever the reason, it will be just another simple physiological and psychological 'cause and effect' process.
This has little to do with music. Music, is interpreted completely differently by the brain, which, far fom being simple and primitive, is in fact the most complex entity in the known universe - by far. The creation of music involves using those psychological and physiological responses as building blocks to create that which can be truly imaginitive, emotional, spiritually uplifting, and most of all 'human'.
A computer may give the illusion of producing music, just as a hypnotist can make you, or even an audience, believe you can play like Andres Segovia.
But the computer is not creating music - only musical sounds. Without an artist there's no art because one absolutely indispensible factor in the creation of all great art is the emotional response of the creator. If a computer is ever designed with true (not just simulated), emotion and imagination then I'll concede otherwise.
So does a person's voice sometimes convey his or her emotion? A decent guitar player makes a guitar his or her voice, often with clear intent to convey an emotion. As with any form of communication, sometimes the message is received as intended, sometimes not. A difference we allow in the arts, is a significant range of lattitude in interpretation. Fine, but sometimes there is a focused message intended to be taken in a specific way. The music may not contain any property in itself that is emotion, but is surely meant to communicate emotion in some cases. It helps strike a resonance between the player and listener.
Arjen: A daresay people thought 30 years ago that by now computers could support autonomous intelligences and be capable of creating thoughts and art. You may be a tad optimistic.
-=tension & release=-
Arjen: A daresay people thought 30 years ago that by now computers could support autonomous intelligences and be capable of creating thoughts and art. You may be a tad optimistic.
Actually, I'd suggest reading up on the chinese translator paradox.
Unless someone can explain to me the viability of an epistemology without a knower, I can't support the notion that hard AI is even sensible, let alone tractable.
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST
Anybody who thinks music cannot express emotion has obviously never heard this:
Hendrix- Star Spangled Banner- Woodstock
Guitar especially is able to express emotion. You can hear the bombs and missles falling. You listen close enough and it get's pretty scary, you are on the battlefield.
I think Hendrix was the master of evoking emotion on guitar. Listen to Third Stone From the Sun. There are some very heavy sounds in this song. Moans and groans, sounds like the tortured demons of Hell. :evil:
Stevie Ray Vaughn captured this same emotion in his great cover.
Just listen.
If you know something better than Rock and Roll, I'd like to hear it - Jerry Lee Lewis
