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(@iliketheguitar)
Estimable Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 124
Topic starter  

What about a mode called super locrian, if it even exists. I'm pretty sure that I have heard of it before.


   
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(@noteboat)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

That's the name of the mode derived from the 7th note of the harmonic minor.

I wouldn't get hung up on modes, though.

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@iliketheguitar)
Estimable Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 124
Topic starter  

Sorry, it's just that I can't play my guitar for like a month, so I decided to start packing my mind on theory.


   
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(@noteboat)
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Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

Fretsource just pointed out that I'd made a typo - it's the 7th of the ascending melodic minor (he's right)

The harmonic minor makes the 'diminished superlocrian'

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@kingpatzer)
Noble Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2171
 

In all seriousness, don't worry about modes.

They are needlessly confusing bits of theory that have little practical application in most musical settings.

There are people who genuinely need to understand modes in order to play within their chosen genres. They are either playing early classical works, or their playing modal jazz. Outside of those two arenas (and a few other even more obscure ones) modes are simply not necessary to describe the music.

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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(@iliketheguitar)
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Joined: 17 years ago
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Topic starter  

Well okay, i guess i won't ask any more modal questions then. Can you guys suggest some other areas of musical theory that i study about.


   
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(@fretsource)
Prominent Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 973
 

Yes - Chord construction and chord progressions


   
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(@kingpatzer)
Noble Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2171
 

And once you have a handle on those areas, look at reharminozation and chord substitutions.

The ability to comp well translates to any genre and will earn immediate respect as a serious musician!

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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(@rahul)
Famed Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 2736
 

I love modes, since any random slew of notes up and down, across and diagonally, forward and backward, finally turns out to be a mode.(by whatever name it maybe called.)

To be serious, KP's advice is the best.


   
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(@odnt43)
Estimable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 158
 

If you'll be playing by ear, and playing with others, learning to transpose is very important also.
And I don't mean just the simple I-IV-V transpositions.
If you can look at a set of chords for a song, and mentally (and rapidly) transpose this to another key, you will be very glad of this ability later.
The more "closed" chords you play, the easier transposing becomes.

"A child of five could understand this...send someone to fetch a child of five !"--Groucho Marx


   
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(@iliketheguitar)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 124
Topic starter  

Ok so I studied chord consrtuction. I learned that the basic chords are triads, and that they are built by stacking the root, the third of the root, and the third of the third. I also learned that depending on if the third and the third of the third are major and/or minor thirds then this would cause them to be major, minor, augmented, or diminished. Major being a major then minor third, minor being a minor then major third, augmented being a major then major third, and finally diminished being a minor then minor third.

I then went on to learn that if you stack another third onto the triad, you get a seventh chord. From here you can go on to making maj9, which has to have the seventh or it would be an add9 chord.

Ok, now for my questions:
1: To make the, for example, a maj13, would you have to have the 7, 9, 13, or just the 7 and the 13?
2:What is the the difference between maj7 and add7?
3: If there is only seven notes in the major scale, what would someone mean when they say 8, 9, 12, 13? Do I just repeat the scale and go on from there?

Can you guys tell me what I missed or what I got wrong in the top two paragraphs? Thanks in advance.

I'll be off to study chord progression next.


   
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(@fretsource)
Prominent Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 973
 

Ok, now for my questions:
1: To make the, for example, a maj13, would you have to have the 7, 9, 13, or just the 7 and the 13?
2:What is the the difference between maj7 and add7?
3: If there is only seven notes in the major scale, what would someone mean when they say 8, 9, 12, 13? Do I just repeat the scale and go on from there?

Can you guys tell me what I missed or what I got wrong in the top two paragraphs? Thanks in advance.

I'll be off to study chord progression next.

Seems like you have a good handle on it, although a couple of statements you made, made me wonder if you know the difference between a 7th and major 7th, a 9th and major 9th and a 13th and major 13th.

Ok - the questions:
1. In theory, to make a major thirteenth chord, you need scale degrees 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 & 13, because, as you noticed, chords are made by stacking thirds.
In practice, you can't play seven notes on a six string guitar so omissions are necessary. In fact even if you could play all the notes, (as a pianist could) there's no need. The essence of the chord is produced by 1, 3, 7 and 13. (Even 1 is often omitted, especially if another instrument, such as the bass is playing it).

2. There's no add 7 chord

3. Scale notes 8, 9, 10, etc are just the same notes as 1, 2, 3, etc. It makes sense to call them that when you are explaining how chords are made from thirds. As you saw, writing a major thirteenth chord as 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 makes more sense than writing 1, 3, 5, 7, 2, 4, 6.
But they're the same.

In all of the above cases - playing flat 7 (b7) instead of 7 gives you 7ths, 9ths 11ths and 13th chords (also known as DOMINANT) instead of MAJOR 7ths, MAJOR 9ths etc.


   
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(@iliketheguitar)
Estimable Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 124
Topic starter  

Ok, that cleared up a lot of things. Just to make something clear, if a flat seventh was added to a chord it would be a _7 but if the natural seventh was played, the chord would be a _Maj7.

Edit: And also, what about a _min7 chord.


   
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(@fretsource)
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Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 973
 

Yes


   
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(@kingpatzer)
Noble Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 2171
 

Ok so I studied chord consrtuction. I learned that the basic chords are triads, and that they are built by stacking the root, the third of the root, and the third of the third. I also learned that depending on if the third and the third of the third are major and/or minor thirds then this would cause them to be major, minor, augmented, or diminished. Major being a major then minor third, minor being a minor then major third, augmented being a major then major third, and finally diminished being a minor then minor third.

Yup, that's the basics, and the stacking you're talking about is known as "root position" or "root inversion."

Where it gets tricky is that you can have your notes in any order.

So, for example, you if you have the notes: C, E, G, Bb you would have a C7 chord.

But if you changed the order to: E, Bb, G, C you STILL have a C7 chord!

I then went on to learn that if you stack another third onto the triad, you get a seventh chord. From here you can go on to making maj9, which has to have the seventh or it would be an add9 chord.

Ok, now for my questions:
1: To make the, for example, a maj13, would you have to have the 7, 9, 13, or just the 7 and the 13?

Technically you would add all the intermediate notes.

However, on most instruments that sounds too muddled, so typically musicians will leave off certain notes.

On a 13 chord, a guitarist might play anywhere from 2 to 6 different pitches, and adequately 'cover' the chord. But the chord is defined by 7 pitches.
2:What is the the difference between maj7 and add7?

Nothing. However, you would see "add 7" only in instances where the person writing the music was not well versed in harmonic theory.

The "add" notation is essentially there to tell the musician to add a chord extension alone rather than the entire implied chord construction. Something like Cadd9 makes sense because it is saying play the notes C, E, G and D. This is different from a C9 which includes the note Bb. But using Cadd7 over CMaj7 is showing a slight lack of understanding of how to use the notation.
3: If there is only seven notes in the major scale, what would someone mean when they say 8, 9, 12, 13? Do I just repeat the scale and go on from there?

Yes, in C, 9=D, 11=F, 13=A
Can you guys tell me what I missed or what I got wrong in the top two paragraphs? Thanks in advance.

I'll be off to study chord progression next.

I'd make sure you understand the difference between a dominant 7th and major 7th construction and why those differences exist.

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST


   
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