Set Up Questions

I understand your questions.

First off, yes it would be nice if manufacturers setup their guitars to a more reasonable level. There are a few people who like very high action. I have played with one. He plays outside in the summer heat and it still at it once it gets a lot colder. He also tends to really pound his guitar. For him it makes sense to have a higher setup. I have played his guitar and found it very difficult to play and I became frustrated after a few minutes.

The vast majority of players like a nice low action. It makes your guitar easier to fret and consequently makes you faster and more acurate, not to mention it is a lot easier on your fingers.

You can make checks to see if you would benefit from a setup. Nils site explains how to do it yourself. You can at least take the measurements to decide if you need one. When I take a guitar in for a setup, I tell the guy how I play, medium to gentle strumming and lots of fingerpicking. I also tell him that I want as low a setup as possible. If I was the type of person to play very aggressively I would definitely let him know.

http://home.nycap.rr.com/nils/

If you take your guitar to a reputatble shop, you should definitely see an improvement in playabilty, provided it needs a setup.

More expensive guitars often get a setup by the seller. Most people who are going to shell out the big bucks for a high end guitar will put it right back on the rack if it is difficult to play and the shops know this.

There must be some members in your area that could recommend a good shop.

Im my experience, initial setup varies very much according to where you buy the instrument. My local Fender dealer, for instance, does each guitar before sale, and IMHO they take as much trouble with a £200-odd Squier as they do with a £2000-odd Custom Shop guitar. A decent mid-range guitar like an Oscar Schmidt is unlikely to have been sold (unless you bought it secondhand) with such a rotten setup that it's unplayable.

You'll probably only come to realise you want an individual slant on setup once you've been playing a few years. Basically, if the intonation's correct, and you are happy with the action, leave well alone. Especially leave the neck relief (truss-rod tension) alone!

If you do notice that for instance it gets harder to fret strings the higher up the neck you play, then maybe you need to get the action lowered. Maybe.

If you notice that you can play in tune around the 5th fret, but when you get up above the 12th it sounds out of tune, then maybe the intonation needs a tweak. Maybe.

If you feel you have niggles with your instrument, and have a good dealer locally (probably a main agent for one of the big manufacturers, Fender, Gibson, Gretsch, Guild, Martin and so on) then by all means let them look it over, and if they recommend a setup just let them do their standard thing. A good dealer won't be too likely to risk their reputation recommending a setup just for the sake of charging you $50, and they'll only do it if they know they can improve either sound or the playability, or both.

But if it feels and sounds OK, then it most probably is :D

Thanks, Max and PVTele, for your replies! And Nils' website is very informative, too. I'm going to go take a much CLOSER look at my guitar now. :)

Margaret

Guitars are made from wood which means that it expands and contracts with temp and humidity. If I were to buy a guitar setup in say Washington state and brought down here to Vegas were there is a 60 to 70% humidity change the neck would bow backward.

I agree, they should at least set the nut height because it is doubtful it will change too much. Once the instrument is out of the plant there is very little they can do to make sure it's setup properly.

Doing a setup is labor-intensive work. There is just no viable way Squier and the likes can afford to spend the labor on setting them all up properly, and even if they tried we'd probably go crazy over the suddenly expensive squiers. It's all about the money: people rather buy a cheaper guitar and spend $50 to get it right then get the same guitar already properly setup with the $50 already added to the price. All has to do with 'getting a bargain' which is modern-day nirvana in our beloved western world.

If you go to a proper luthier then your guitar will most likely improve. Tell him you're new to guitar and would like the axe to be setup so playing is as smooth as can be without having fretbuzz all over the place. He'll be able to turn that sentence into a great setup. :)

I strongly agree with Arjen. My first two guitars were inexpensive both bettween 2 and 3 hundred and they came with a horrible action. My brother just bought a Sammick and has the same experience. He actually plays less because his new guitar is less enjoyable to play. He was playing a converted right handed guitar. The next time he is in town we are going to do a setup.

My Larrivee which was used came with a decent setup. If you Pick up a $1000 dollar or better Martin, Gibson etc, at the shops they feel like butter. Grab a lower end guitar and the difference is obvious.

Putting 50 bucks worth of work into an expensive guitar helps it sell faster. Putting 50 bucks worth of work into a 200 dollar guitar means your either out 50 or you have to raise the price, and someone shopping in the 200 dollar range (and Ive been there) usually doesn't want the extra cost.

Guitars are made from wood which means that it expands and contracts with temp and humidity. If I were to buy a guitar setup in say Washington state and brought down here to Vegas were there is a 60 to 70% humidity change the neck would bow backward.
I hadn't thought about it before, but considering the characteristics of wood, the set-up could change dramatically with a change in climate, couldn't it? :idea:

We have hot, humid summers, and cold, dry winters (typically, although this winter its been "warm" for here). The guitars live inside the house, but we don't often use the air conditioning, thus having indoor humidity in the summer, and in spite of humidification during heating season, the indoor air is still fairly dry in winter.

So is there a better time of year to take the instrument in for the set-up?

Thank you again for all your help!

Margaret

Yeah, just as with pianos you might want to have two setups done every year: one in autumn and one in spring. Now maybe you can take a look at how it's done so you can make the changes yourself, I can see dragging your guitar in every few months gets annoying eventually.

I don't think there are too many people out there that get 2 setups a year. Mine certainly lasted years. I have not noticed any difference from season to season, although I am sure there are subtle differences.

A house is relatively climate controlled. Temperature changes from winter to summer are gradual and of course we heat in winter - where necessary. The most important change is humidity. I use a humidifer. I bought one mainly for my lungs (they get irritated easily). I set the humidifier to 50%, so neither my lungs nor my guitar experience extreems. A case humidifier is only a few bucks.

Of course climate is a local issue, where I live extreemly high humidity is not a problem.

As for learning to do setup's yourself, I am all in favor of that. Too many people are afraid to do the adjustments themselves. The only reason I took my current guitar in for a setup was because it needed a fret leveling and that I would never atempt.

I do one every several years, but I don't abuse my guitars and most of them don't go outside.

But the difference in playing a well setup inexpensive guitar is amazing.

Then again some expensive guitars are sold in bad need of a setup. My Gibson 185EC comes to mind.

Interesting isn't it, the difference in guitar shop philosophies? I mentioned my local Fender main dealer in my first post, and I've talked with the proprietor on this very subject.

Their idea is that, as a relatively small dealership, they plan on building a customer base rather than maximising their margins every way they can. So, they reckon the labour they expend setting up an inexpensive guitar properly is bread on the water, as it were. They prefer loyal customers to lots of customers, and so their prices, while not on the cheaper models quite covering their setup labour, are not as cheap as the real cheapo online outlets - maybe 10-15% more.

Today's pleased purchaser of a beautifully set-up Squier may be back next year for a a Fender USA Deluxe, or even a PRS Modern Eagle! (they're PRS and Ibanez dealers also.) But though the same man or woman leaving the shop with a horribly set-up guitar may sooner replace it, they're not so likely to replace it from the same store ... And all those bit & pieces that add up to so much money, strings and leads and stomp-boxes and so forth, are that much more likely to be bought from a trusted dealership, and so a relationship builds up, and the shop's good name gets spread about - like I'm doing, plugging Guitar Mania in Parkstone, Poole!

Are you sure it needs a setup? If you've changed the strings and their is no buzzing and your happy with the action then you're OK! Oh, and it should sound good.....

BJ

Last night I decided to take some measurements of the various aspects of my guitar. Thanks to Nils for your very informative website! 8)

I've concluded that:

(a) My neck relief is within normal limits (~0.38mm)
(b) My action is miles off the deck (~4-5mm) :o
(c) My intonation is slightly out.

Oh, and this all relates to a Fender acoustic (acoustic/electric) guitar (DG14SE model).

Anyhoo, my questions are as follows:

1. How much effect would different strings have on the action? I replaced the factory fitted strings (unsure what size/type) about three months ago with Martin Custom Lights 0.11 I think.
2. The intonation seems sharp at the 12th fret. Is this considered severe enough to be concerned or is it within the realms of acceptable intonation?
3. Is it reasonable to think I could lower the action myself as per the method outlined on Nils's website (ie. sand down the bottom of the saddle (?bridge ... well the plastic insert thingy :?).

I've been playing pretty well with the guitar as it is but with the action at 4-5mm I'm quite amazed how. But recently I've been having problems constantly with a particular chord and have noticed that when trying to fret high up on the fretboard there is a lot of movement since I have to push the strings down that 5mm distance.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

The higher the action the more likely you are to pull a string out of tune when fretting especially at like frets 10 and higher.

So, it would be worthwhile lowering it some but I would just do a little at a time until it works. Make sure you take a little off at a time and keep it as even as possible. If you go too low then you end up with fret buzz which means replacing the saddle or shimming it up with some hardwood veneer.

And yes, changing the string gage will impact the action some but not a lot. Going to lighter strings which it sounds like you have can actually lower it a little since there is less tension on the neck.

Also remember that on an acoustic with a fixed bridge the intonation will never be perfect since the only adjustment is turning the bridge front to back. I would not mess with that unless it is WAY off since they do a pretty good job at the factory about getting it as close as it will get.