What key are these in?

Not much to go on there Taso. We don't know how those notes are harmonised, i.e., which chords are going on under those notes. Why do you say they all ought to be in G originally? Do they have a single sharp key signature in the notation? Which instrument(s) are these pieces written for? If it's guitar then it's unlikely that changing the key would make them more playable.

Going purely by the few notes given, and ignoring the possibilty that they could be minor or modal...

Piece 1 could be in G or D. We don't know for sure because you haven't said if C is sharp or natural. If natural then G is the likeliest key - if sharp, then D is more likely

Piece 2 - D major is the most likely

Piece 3 - C major is the most likey

Piece 4 - If it's in C major, then what's that F# doing there at the end? If it's immediately followed by G, but later F natural comes in and the whole section ends on C, then it's in C - otherwise there's something else going on.

Piece 6 - It looks like G - but you say it ends on F?? If that's the case then it would have to involve quite a drastic key change somewhere along the line as it has F# too, or maybe a couple of key changes such as G>C>F - but if it's in F you would expect to see more Bbs than B naturals.

If these are simple classical guitar pieces of the 18th/19th century, then it's likely that the last note and chord is the key note/ chord and that each piece starts and ends in the same key but is likey to involve at least one temporary key change during the course of the piece.

Fretsource, thanks for the reply.

I totally forgot to mention what the music was -

It's all solo music for Cello - Bach's Cello Suite no. 1, so the only reason I know its originally in G major is because..well, that's what it is, haha.

There are no chords going on under the notes. I don't have any real notation for this stuff.

Piece 1 - it's C#, my bad.

Piece 4 - it does indeed do all of that (F# followed by G and then F natural comes in and ends on C)

Please let me know what other information I can provide to make this more possible

Piece 4 is probably C Lydian - modal, in G Major. Bach uses lots of accidentals, so the F natural is probably throwing you a curve ball suggesting a key-change to C Major from C Lydian but I suspect it doesn't happen.

I hate Bach with a passion. It's great to listen to, I have CD's of Segovia playing lots of Bach which I enjoy hugely, and I played the Allemande from BWV 996 for my Grade 7; but it's a thundering pain in the rear end to play Bach well.

A :-)

Is there a key signature on the piece of music? How many sharps or flats?

I'm looking at the cello score (pdf file).

The cello and the guitar have very nearly the same range - the cello starts at C, a major third below our 6th string, and goes up to high A - our 17th fret of the 1st string. (The music looks different because the cello is written in concert pitch, while the guitar is transposed an octave). If cello music is simply transposed up a major third, it almost fits on the classical guitar... and it will fit on many steel strings and pretty much all electrics - you just need 21 frets to duplicate a cello's range. And since a cello has four strings tuned in fifths, its range in any one position is identical to the guitar: two octaves between the highest and lowest strings. There will also be no impossible reaches, because a cello's scale length is slightly longer than a guitar's.

What that means is pretty simple: cello pieces usually aren't arranged for the guitar; they're transposed for the guitar. That means a guitar score will usually be an exact parallel to the cello piece. Here the first five pieces all include the cello's low C, so they'd need to be transposed. (The sixth movement goes down to D - that's playable as is using drop D tuning, or it could be transposed up a major second or more to fit the guitar.)

So here's the original keys, and how they match up to your posted notes from the first two measures you posted:

Mvt 1 (Prelude): original in G major. Yours is transposed to D - your highest note should be a 10th fret D in the 3rd/4th measures from the end.

Mvt 2 (Allemande): original in G major beginning on the third. Yours is transposed to D - same highest note, 10th fret D.

Mvt 3 (Courante): original in G major. You're transposed to C major. Your highest note should be G# (if it's a direct transposition) that occurs about halfway through - the same pitch as the 1st string, 4th fret.

Mvt 4 (Sarabande): original in G major. Transposing it to C you'd begin with E and end on C... but the accidentals in the piece should be Bb (3rd measure), F# (6th, 7th, 8th measures), G# (10th, 11th, 12th measures), and C# (14th measure). If you really have an F# in the first two measures there's something wrong... I'm guessing the first trill was written out in your arrangement, and done incorrectly - it would normally be played by alternating from E to F natural in the key of C.

Mvt 5 (two Minuets): your missing one is the trickiest one for identifying key. The score shows key signatures of G for Minuet I and F for Minuet II, which would put the whole movement in G major - because it's meant to be performed in three parts, Minuet I - Minuet II - Minuet I again. Minuet II has a key signature of F in the original, but it's not going to have a major sound; there are D minor triad arpeggios in measures 2, 6, 13, and 16. The last few measures can be seen as arpeggios on F7, G, and F#dim (with a few extra notes in each), ending on a G note - to lead back into Minuet I. A fair bit of chromaticism here, so you could describe some parts as having modal flavors... but I'd call Minuet II the key of D minor.

Mvt 6 (Gigue): the original is in G major, and starts on D - the fifth. So if you're starting on G, you should be in the key of C. I have no clue where your F note comes from - there are no phrases that end on the fourth, and the original ends on the tonic. Your F# could again be a written out trill - in the key of C, the trill in the 4th full measure would be E-F (but should be played as F natural). The accidentals used in Bach's score when moved to the key of C would be: F#, Bb, Eb, G# and Ab - so you might want to check those against your arrangement to see if your last note is an error.... the notes in the last measure, transposed to C, should be: C-G-E-C.

Yeah, Alan - I'm having a blast learning these though. This Cello Suite was my favorite piece of music for a long, long time, and I'd always wanted to learn it, but never had the discipline to stick with it. I've learned the Prelude pretty damn well over the past month, especially for a blues guitar player - I'll post a recording soon to Hear Here.

Nick, no, no key signatures or anything.

Noteboat, thanks for that reply. I have several questions, given all that you wrote.

1. Does all that about the cello and guitar being very similar mean that I can play the Suite in its original key, correctly, on the guitar? I really dislike that I've had to play them in D, I feel like I'm cheating or something. But then again, I'd be annoyed if you answer "yes, you can learn them in G" because I'd have spent the last month getting the nuances of the Prelude down for nothing :P But as far as I could tell, the problem with learning it in G would be that I can't hit the low G that the cello hits, especially in the prelude for example, no?

2. I thought the first two were D - I really hoped the rest were as well. Wouldn't it be less appealing to a listener if they're not in the same key (if I learn the rest of the pieces in C, and play the first two in D) I'd think Bach wrote them all in the same key for a reason. So, should I find different transposings (or do it myself, either one), or is it acceptable to play the Prelude and Allemande in D and the Courante/Sarabande/Menuets/Gigue in C? *

3. For the Courante my highest note is an A, 5th fret on E, its in the 10th measure, and not G# - what does this mean?

4. I don't have an F# in the first two measures, and there is one in the 6th 7th and 8th

5. The Gigue ends on C in my transposition**

Also, if anyone could tell me the correct pronunciations of Allemande, Courante, Sarabande, and Gigue, I'd appreciate it :P

*This was the main reason for this thread
** wow, I was totally misreading it the first time, in various spots, and that explains all of the weirdness you guys are detecting. I kept reading the 5th string as being the 4th, and so the 3rd fret was an F to me, instead of being a C because I'm half blind apparently. I apologize to all who suffered trying to figure out what key it was as a result of my careless readings.

Edit: Good lord, just looked at the notation you linked to, Noteboat. I can't believe how short these pieces are, and how long its taking me just to MEMORIZE them, not even to be able to play them masterfully or something. Embarrassing.

Are any of you guys very familiar with this music? If I were to post me playing it would anyone mind offering some constructive criticism/tips?

1. No, the original key is too low - the cello hits low C in five of the movements. In standard tuning, they'd be in E or higher for guitar.

2. Suites were popular from about 1550-1750. This is before equal temperament, and although by Bach's day there were a number of temperaments that let you play in all keys, suites were often meant to be performed to accompany court dances - so you'd have some instruments that could handle multiple keys, and others that hand to change instruments (or insert crooks, retune, etc). So most suites are in one key, or maybe two - with a fairly close modulation.

3. Whoops! I missed that note in looking through it - you're right, it goes up to A.

4. Ok, that fits. Use F natural for the trills on E.

5. Then your Gigue is in C.

They're pronounced AL-eh-man (or AL-a-mand, both starting like the name "Al"), coo-RAHNT, sar-ah-band (or sar-ah-bahnd; either way it starts like the name "Sarah"), and zheeg.

I'm actually recording a baroque suite tomorrow for a student... but it's one by de Richee (and it's in Am)

Also, if anyone could tell me the correct pronunciations of Allemande, Courante, Sarabande, and Gigue, I'd appreciate it :P

If you need more help with pronouncing any musical terms, look them up and listen here.. http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/

Noteboat,

With regards to "2", that is, the various pieces being in different keys - you don't think this will have a negative effect on the sound of the entire suite? It would seem to me that having them in different keys would ruin some of the...flow, I guess. If this really isn't the case I'll stop worrying about it, however, if it is, than perhaps I'll re-learn the prelude and Allemande in C, so as to match with the rest of the pieces - or, better yet, transpose the other versions to D, so I don't have to relearn the Prelude and Allemnade.

Thanks for the pronunciations, as well. I'd never have thought Gigue was pronounced with a Z :P

Thanks for that link fretsource.

edit: I guess the best way to sum up what I'm asking: Wouldn't it be better to learn all the pieces in the same key (D)?

With regards to "2", that is, the various pieces being in different keys - you don't think this will have a negative effect on the sound of the entire suite? It would seem to me that having them in different keys would ruin some of the...flow, I guess. If this really isn't the case I'll stop worrying about it, however, if it is, than perhaps I'll re-learn the prelude and Allemande in C, so as to match with the rest of the pieces - or, better yet, transpose the other versions to D, so I don't have to relearn the Prelude and Allemande.

I guess the best way to sum up what I'm asking: Wouldn't it be better to learn all the pieces in the same key (D)?

Can anyone address this? I'm about done memorizing the Allemande, and not sure if I should be working on transposing the Courante, or just learn it in C. I really don't care how much work it takes, I'd much rather learn it correctly than anything else.

You are NEVER supposed to play an entire suite in one key unless you seriously want to bore the crap out of your audience. You do, however, want to change keys sensibly. If you play them seperate it doesnt matter but if you play them in a session play them in, relatively, the right key. So if you play the first in D, play the second in Am.

You are NEVER supposed to play an entire suite in one key unless you seriously want to bore the crap out of your audience.

How can this be correct? The original cello score is entirely in G major. That's how its played by cellists currently, as well.

I'll look up the score but IIRC he modulates within each suite at some dances. I played an arrangement of one of 'em and it had a modulation from C to Cm in it without having the Cm signature (it went from none to two flats? :? ). Just play the notes of the original score. If you bump into a hidden modulation dont try to squeeze them away. :P

I'll look up the score but IIRC he modulates within each suite at some dances. I played an arrangement of one of 'em and it had a modulation from C to Cm in it without having the Cm signature (it went from none to two flats? :? ). Just play the notes of the original score. If you bump into a hidden modulation dont try to squeeze them away. :P

Okay. I understand, I think. Basically what I'm doing, in effect, is adding 2 frets to whatever fret the score says, no matter what, right? I've done this for about 3/4 the score and it all sounds perfect as far as I can tell.