Whats the "right" way to alt. pick

There are few specifics or perfect techniques for any type of picking -- alternate or otherwise. If one does a web search on picking techniques -- alternate, economy, Benson, circle ... -- lots of discussions should pop. Even the seasoned pros debate this all the time. I read a recent jazz newsgroup posting purporting that Pat Metheny is unhappy with his picking technique -- who knows? Could be true.

I find my technique for alt picking varies depending upon desired tone, attack speed, string gauge and genre. Your metal-playing friend sounds as if he may use circle picking. Lot's of people admire this technique, but few actually seem to use it successfully. Other ways include loose pick + flex at wrist (you describe this), stiff wrist + forearm rotating axially (very strong attack) or even stiff wrist and move whole forearm up and down. There are also hybrids of these methods and more. The angle of the pick WRT the strings is an additional, but closely related discussion.

The bottom line is this: What works for you is what you use. And that will probably change in both the long and short terms. It's a good idea to try different picking methods to understand what each has to offer -- but to do this, one will have to put some time in to attaining at least partial proficiency in different methods.

Sorry, not much in the way of specific advice other than "You have to find out for yourself." Your instructor should be aware of all these possibilities and be able to coach you in some of the alternatives.

-Greg

Hiya,

It's your money, and they're your lessons.

If you can't get on with how your teacher plays something you need to tell him so and ask him to explain why his way is the best. Then, if you're not satisfied with the answers you can put across your own point of view. Your teacher should be able to accept it without rubbishing what you say.

Best,

A :-)

I really hate questions like this because your technique has nothing to do with what youre told to do. Take what you want from the people you learn from and admire but in the end its always up to you.

Lynard Skynard used American Quarters for picks.
SRV held his pick sidewise and struck with the rounded side.
Wes Montgommery commonly used nothing but his fingers.

Youve got left handed players, right handed players and people who play with bass strings upside down. The Edge from U2 claims hes never played a correct chord in his entire life.

Play alot and youll aquire a technique composed of yourself and everything youve wanted to keep from others.

Alternate picking is a concept you learn by alternate picking, not by someone saying this is how you do it. If you beleive his advice is the soundest concept then I would practice it. But just the fact you inquired about it leads me to beleive you dont understand his reasoning behind the idea.

Kido

Kinda like the endless discussions about hand positions. There's not a single "right" or "wrong." Depends on what you're trying to do and what works best for you. There are usually several good alternatives.

Kido,

"I really hate questions like this because your technique has nothing to do with what youre told to do."

I'm not an easy guy to burn up, but here we go. 1.) Frankly, I don't give a damn whether or not you hate my question. 2.) Your statement couldn't be more false. When we are first learning to play from a teacher, we are told "hold the pick this way" or "finger a chord like this." Sure everyone has their own take on everything. EVH used his middle finger to hold the pick rather than his index finger. But how we do things, or how we are taught to do things (whether its right or wrong), has an affect on how we play as we progress. If someone tells me when I'm first learning that the best way to hold my pick is with my pinky finger because in the long run it is the most efficient way, than I'll do it. If later on I decide I'm more confortable holding it with my index than I'll do it that way. But doing something "the natural way" or whatever feels the easiest is not always correct. I purposefully try to do things the harder way sometimes because it gets my fingers used to moving in different ways. Likewise, I'd rather learn all the options then choose my own way.

My question was simply trying to get more information about how things are done. I was self taught when I first started playing, and have been very aware my playing from the start because I didn't want to form any bad habits. Perhaps I phrased my question wrong my using the word "right." I'm simply trying to gain all the options.

"But just the fact you inquired about it leads me to beleive you dont understand his reasoning behind the idea. "

Bottom line: we are all learning here. If you can't understand that, I' feel very sorry for you. Meantime, if you "hate" certain kinds of questions, don't feel the need to put in your 2 cents. No one wants it.

To the rest of you, thanks for your input.

M

Matty, I don't think Kido was trying to be hostile with his reply. He's just saying that questions like yours have a million answers depending on who you ask. You can ask, but don't take any one answer as the absolute gospel about it unless it works for you.

Yes, there are definate proper techniques. Doing certain things the "natural" way will lead to problems but adapting different picking styles is a whole new arena. Which is what your question is about...

Matty,

Changes in picking technique are devilishly hard to accomplish. As Greg pointed out, it's good to try other methods, practice them, understand their advantages... but unless you feel yours is truly lacking in speed or tone, you'll probably end up leaving it alone.

I use the wrist motion, as do many guitarists. There are other methods, and I've tried many of them, but the wrist motion is the most reliable for me. When I play classical, I use a stiff thumb... there are guitarists who flex their thumb at the first joint (sometimes called the 'Tarrega wiggle'), and I've tried that... but I can't get comfortable with it, and I haven't run into music that I can't play without using that motion.

You say you can't get the metal riffs down. Is it because you're trying to do it with your teacher's technique, or you can't do them at all? And ignoring the way he moves his picking grip... can you get the same notes with the same pick direction?

Many metal riffs are based on 'sweep' picking, which can be tough to learn - although it's still an up/down motion with the pick, the timing of the upstroke varies a lot. It's very similar to economy picking, which I think is worth learning - but not to the exclusion of alternate picking.

Can you elaborate a bit on the problem you've got with the riffs?

Tom

I've actually started to get them a little bit, but when I first tried them, it was quite a scene. I couldn't even pick them soloing. I think the main problem was that I simply haven't played that style at all. Classic rock and blues are my supposed fortes, although if you heard me play you'd wonder...

The riff was like this (PM the A)

D-------------7-------10-------7-------------------------------------------------
A---0--0--0-----0-0------0-0-----0-0-0-0-0------------------------------------

Repeat 3x, then on the fourth

D-------------7-------10-------7--------5--------3--------2--------3------------
A---0--0--0-----0-0------0-0-----0-0------0-0-----0-0------0-0------0-0-----

He picked it in standard alt. picking starting on a downstroke. My problem was coming off of the upstroke on the 7th fret; I would go back to play the next open A and would accidently hit the D string again, or I would be trying to pick to tempo and the pick would hang up for a moment and throw me of time, etc. Lots of small stuff. When I picked the open A notes with downstrokes and the D string notes with upstrokes, I didn't have a problem at all. But when I tried to alt. pick it was like my motor skills decided to take a break!

I thought that perhaps somethig was wrong with my alt. picking because when I do it, I do it from the wrist and adjusting things according to speed. I've never done it from the fingers, which is what my teacher does. He also picks slightly with the side of the pick, which he says makes a huge difference in his speed, but I find I hang up on the strings more often on upstrokes if I do it that way. Either way he was doing it much better than I was, which is why I questioned my technique.

What do you think? :?
Matt

Funny thing. 90% of the time, I alt pick or use some form of fingerstyle, but when I played this it sounded better to let the open A ring out and as a result I played it completely with downstrokes -- without even thinking about it. For me the music and feel dictate and my fingers just seem to find the best way.

I just played through it three different ways: strict alternate picking; downstrokes on the A string, up strokes on the D; economy picking, with consecutive downstrokes when the notes are on the A-D strings:

D U D D U D D U D D U D D U D DU D DU D D U D
D-------------7-------10-------7--------5--------3--------2--------3------------
A---0--0--0-----0-0------0-0-----0-0------0-0-----0-0------0-0------0-0-----


The third one definately takes more concentration. I used wrist motion on all... so I don't think it's the way he moves the pick, or which part of the pick he strikes with (I use just the tip, no mater which picking direction), it's a matter of accuracy.

It's hard to give you a definitive answer without seeing you play, but there's a big clue: the hanging up of the pick. I'd guess that's because you're picking too deep into the strings - you should be using the very last 1/8", or even less, to get good speed. The palm muting in the exercise complicates that a bit - because you can't float your hand, there's a tendency to pick deeper. Lift your fingertips up slightly to counteract the palm muting.

Striking the D string instead of the A is a matter of picking accuracy. It's likely that you're fine picking things like scales, because you're used to doing them - you need to find some picking exercises that you're not used to, and work at them.

If you've got the Berklee Method, do the triplet exercises on p.37 of book 1... the version with each triplet starting on a downstroke. That one will give you a feeling of being in the 'wrong' place with the pick (your gut instinct will be to use an upstroke when the exercise calls for a downstroke). I think that's the feeling you're trying to overcome, so forcing the issue will help you deal with it. The last two sections in particular will help you get that 2 or 3 notes on one string, followed by the next string, similar to your exercise.

There are several other exercises in that book that will help develop string accuracy - the Endurance Etude (p.48), the Reverse Alternate Picking Study (p.52), and the exercise Picking - A Different Technique (p.59). There are other studies in the book as well, but they're just different notes using the techniques in these three.

In my opinion, developing accurate picking technique is the major problem faced by intermediate guitarists. I mean, once you're beyond basic barre chords, there will be some fingerings that twist you up, and there will be some scales to get used to... but picking is something you use all the time, and as the rhythms get more complex, you can't rely so much on muscle memory as when you're playing straight eighths. Your pick has to go to the string you intend, every single time - and that's actually a lot harder than it sounds.

Makes a lot of sense, I'll give those drills a shot. Thanks all :)

Matt

Matt,

Weird, seems to me like Ive done nothing but help people since I got here. And everyone but you understands this. So Ill make this quick, not to "burn you up more" because thats aparently what Ive done.

Firstly, I never said I hated your question. I said I hated questions like these, because if you develop a technique (bad habit) that isnt the most efficient method for you to be playing, you will chop off years from your development. We take a HUGE risk in answering them, because as much as you may like to hear us say... "Yes Matt your godly guitar teacher knows all, if he says play with the pick between your knees you need to do it, without questioning what seems (natural) easiest you. I cant say "Go with it bro" with a good concience and expect you to progress the way you should. When you put a question out there and ask for guidance, my advice would be prepared to be GUIDED. If you knew all the responses youd get why bother asking? You should see my email inbox from kids asking me questions, and then see my outbox to those Ive responded to. I probably put more time in working one on one with people here then anyone, (exluding a few). I think you should reconsider the following statements...

1.) "If someone tells me when I'm first learning that the best way to hold my pick is with my pinky finger because in the long run it is the most efficient way, than I'll do it."

(No seriously...did you really say that? your going to assume that just because someone has taken the title "Guitar Teacher" his word is gospel? That is by far the biggest conformist, mindless statement Ive ever seen. Wheres your mind man? Do you make decisions for yourself?)

2.) "Likewise, I'd rather learn all the options then choose my own way."

(Learning your own way is why you play the guitar. If you never take a risk, when are you going to become your own musician?? The longer you wait playing around with contradicting concepts, the longer before you become an profficient player. Additionally, do you have any idea how many picking options there are? You will never "learn all the options", EVER, I promise you this.

3.) "If you can't understand that, I' feel very sorry for you. Meantime, if you "hate" certain kinds of questions, don't feel the need to put in your 2 cents. No one wants it."

Im gonna just let this one sit there, because Im very certain alot of people know how untrue this is, especially regarding myself.

If you want sugar coated lessons, go take up dance or something. Otherwise grow a mind, a stomach, and an opinion that does more then flame the guys trying to help you.

Kido