Down by the river near Woodstock

Hiya,

If you take a look at how you use chord substitutions to give a song some extra chromatic interest (Flat 5th substitutes, III for VI substitutes and so on, where you're changing the sound oh so slightly by one note), I think you'll be on the right track.

The notes for the Bm Pentatonic are B, D, E, F# and A

Those for the Em Pentatonic are E, G, A, B and D

You'll notice that the difference between the two scales is the G instead of the F#. G exists in the key of Bm as an augmented 5th, and the chord of G Major exists in Bm as the VI.

What this does is add an extra element of dissonance. Your phrasing will need to be carefully thought out (so no shredding) but as you're finding out it can sound really good.

Best,

Alan :-)

I had a quick look at the tab at http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/y/young_neil/down_by_the_river_tab.htm

The verses are quite clearly in Em with alternating Em7 and A.  The choruses are in D with the chords mainly D,G and A, but using a Bm as a pivot chord from the Em key of the verses.  The v of the verse becomes the vi of the chorus.  Neat.

From the standpoint of sheet music, Bm is probably a good compromise key to minimise the number of accidentals needed.  (Bm has the same key signature as D, and differs in one note from Em).

The Em pentatonic (E-G-A-B-D) will fit both keys.

I hope this helps.

Another thing to do is to use the old "I've learned my major scale and I'm going to stick with it" method. Since Bm (natural minor) is the D major scale and since the sections in Em use the A major, why not go with E Dorian?

In other words, use the D major scale:

D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D

but change your tone centers depending upon what part of the song you're playing. When you're in the Em part, your scale is now:

E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D, E

and when you're in the Bm part, the scale is now

B, C#, D, E, F#, G, A

It's a really subtle thing (and trying to explain it (after rereading this) sounds pretty silly) but I hope you get what I'm trying to say. You can use the same scale and just change the tonal focus of the scale.

Hope this helps more than confuses.

Peace

Thanks, it's all very helpful and I'll need to digest it somewhat.  I'm working from the "officially published" sheet music/tabs and trying to understand precisely why they did what they did.  So you're confirming some of what I think I thought was going on.  (I'm really trying to move beyond just blindly learning tabs to understanding what's happening).  Helgi, your comment is encouraging -- it suggests to me that in part the transcriber in noting a key signature is also choosing a strategy and solving a puzzle. David, that E Dorian thing had been kind of floating in and out of my consciousness too but I wasn't quite sure if it really made sense in terms of the tabs.  In part it looks like it could be working back forth between the pentatonic and Dorian -- if that makes any sense.

Again, thanks.  I'll print this out and ponder it.  (Again I've managed to demonstrate that a little knowledge is dangerous thing!  ;) )

Tim

A good thing to remember, Tim, is that with guitarists, while they know and learn scales, a lot of them learned th same way that we do/are/did - by copying riffs and noodling around. So when they are jamming and coming up with things, it's not necessarily going to be from one source.

Music theory is cool in that, almost always, it will give you clues as to why something works or sounds good. But it's usually, at least with many guitarists, not how they got there in the first place!  ;)

Jam away and if you find something you like, figure out why afterwards! It sounds like you're having fun with this, which is definitely cool.

Peace

It's a really subtle thing (and trying to explain it (after rereading this) sounds pretty silly) but I hope you get what I'm trying to say. You can use the same scale and just change the tonal focus of the scale.
 

Exactly.  I think that's how a lot of music comes about.  

You get the feeling old Neil knows the chords in D, plus C and Bm and just kinda mixes them up.

I think a lot of the "modal" quality of folk music comes about because of the specific characteristics of the instruments used.  I.e. a lot of folky instruments, bagpipes and penny whistles and stuff, are in D or have a D drone note.  Accompany that by a keyboard or accordion player who only knows the white keys (C) and you get Dorian.  

Many "Dorian" songs are simply that way because a D major is easier to finger than D minor (in the key of Am).

You write a song in G major (the easiest key) on a guitar.  How many casual players know how to finger an F#dim?  Not many, but lots can play an F which sounds good.  Instant quasi-Mixolydian.  I say "quasi" because people almost never use the minor v that would be real Mixolydian.

And so forth.  

so how exactly do chord substituions work?

Go here, Stork. It's written by our very own Darrin Koltow and published on his own website:

http://www.maximummusician.com/ArticleChordPrimer.htm

You know what, I think a good part of that solo for Down by the River is mixing Em pentatonic and E Locrian.  I gather the Locrian has a minor feel too, right?  Ah, Neil, you tricky fellow you.

You know what, I think a good part of that solo for Down by the River is mixing Em pentatonic and E Locrian.  I gather the Locrian has a minor feel too, right?  Ah, Neil, you tricky fellow you.

Hmm, E Locrian would require an F major scale over an Edim chord.  I can't see evidence of either in the tab:
http://www.thetabworld.com/Neil_Young__Down_By_The_River_guitar_tab.html

Locrian is a tricky business.  You can't get the dim chord to sound like "home" so it is often not included in the modes that can be used as a basis for music.

It may be possible to make some sort of Locrian by droning on an E while noodling in F, but Neil's song is nothing like that.

The published tab I'm working with has a few riffs that revolve around the 12, 14,15 frets on the G string and then the 15 and 17th on the B.  Frankly, it's the addition of that fifteenth fret on the 3rd string that is a bit of anomaly but that would tie in nicely to the Locrian.  Hence my perhaps hastily drawn conclusion.  Otherwise it all fits the pentatonic nicely.  

Maybe it's a passing note...

or something more sinister than we could ever imagine.

 
the 12, 14,15 frets on the G string and then the 15 and 17th on the B.

G A Bb D E in other words.  or b3 4 b5 b7 root

Well yeah, but a b5 does not by itself Locrian make.  Forsooth.   ;)

Otherwise every blues song in the world would be Locrian.  

I'd say that fits with E blues scale, i.e. Em pentatonic with a b5.

Perhaps every blues scale partakes of the Locrian?  No, I didn't mean to suggest that the solo was beholden to the Locrian but was rather wondering how one would explain that pesky little note there.
What fun!  Forsooth to you too, by the way.   ;)