It's the shift in tones and semi-tones from one mode to another that changes the note from natural to raised or lowered from the scale applied over it, and giving it the distinct sound:
Ionian - W-W-H-W-W-W-H. Our beloved major scale. Notice how the steps move over by one for the next mode:
Dorian - W-H-W-W-W-H-W.
Phrygian - H-W-W-W-H-W-W.
Lydian - W-W-W-H-W-W-H.
Mixolydian - W-W-H-W-W-H-W.
Aeolian - W-H-W-W-H-W-W. Our beloved minor scale (being the 6th degree of the major scale, and therefore naturally minor.
Locrian - H-W-W-H-W-W-W.
Take any scale and apply it over these shapes.
D Phrygian, for example...
D Phrygian (compared to Dmaj and Dm)
w.....w.....h.....w.....w.....w.....h.....Major
D.....E.....F#....G.....A.....B.....C#
w.....h.....w.....w.....h.....w.....w.....Minor
D.....E.....F.....G.....A.....Bb....C
h.....w.......w.....w....h.....w.......w.....Phrygian
D....D#/Eb....F.....G....A....A#/Bb....C
E Phrygian (compared to Emaj and Em)
w.....w.....h.....w....w.....w.....h.....Major
E.....F#....G#....A....B.....C#....D#
w.....h.....w.....w.....h.....w.....w.....Minor
E.....F#....G.....A.....B.....C.....D
h.....w.....w.....w.....h.....w.....w.....Phrygian
E.....F.....G.....A.....B.....C.....D
It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.
Thanks for that information KP it does make sense to concentrate more on the intervals.
Now I may be in left field but modes to me seem like shades of color, kind of like you can have something that's blue but it might be sky blue or navy blue or powder blue and that's what the different modes are just different flavors of the same scale.
But KP when I look at your modes of C Major that you wrote out, it's been said they use the same notes but yet look at Dorian compared to the Ionian and you'll see a flattened 3rd in Dorian and not in Ionian so in one you play an Eb and the other an E. But that was my guestion before those aren't the same notes. That's the part that thows me off if the notes aren't the same then how can the fingerings be the same.(OK I know I'm thinking in patterns here because I can't think in intervals yet)
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The notes are only the same if you compare modes that start on different notes of the scale. If you compare them starting on the same note as KP has shown, then the notes are NOT the same.
C major (CDEFGAB) has the same notes as D dorian,(DEFGABC) E phrygian,(EFGABCD) F lydian, (FGABCDE)etc.
But, as you noticed, C major doesn't have exactly the same notes as C Dorian, C phrygian, C lydian, etc. The fingering patterns will be different too.
Ok so can you interchange C Phyrigian starting on C and E Phyrigian starting on E? would that give you the same tonal center?
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Ok so can you interchange C Phyrigian starting on C and E Phyrigian starting on E? would that give you the same tonal center?
No, they're not interchangeable. C Phrygian has C as its tonal centre: E phrygian has E as its tonal centre.
Ok Fretsource so if the tonal center was C could I solo in C Phrygian during one part and D Dorian in another. Or put it another way can I solo in any of the modes in Cmajor that KP wrote out compared to the others starting on a different interval.
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
Cnev,
Whenever someone tells you that modes are just "flavors" of scales they're wrong. They are different scales. Accept that and it all becomes much easier.
When they say they use the same notes, they're right and wrong at the same time.
The individual notes used between, say D Dorian and C Ionian are the same. However, the tonic in D Dorian is D, in C Ionian it is C. So the D in D Dorian is the octave, in C Ionian it is the 2nd. That seems like a trivial little point but it really isn't. While the notes are the same in terms of the frequency of vibrations, they are different in their function within the scale.
Just as Bb can also be written as A#. While they are played on the same place on the keyboard or guitar neck, it would be a mistake to think that you can substitute a Bb for an A# in a composition in every case. While people would know what you want played, they wouldn't understand quite what you're saying.
It would be like a guy from Houston, Texas try to talk to a bloke from Tynside, England? They're both speaking English but they can't understand a word the other guy is saying.
People muck up modes all the time by this idea of them being "flavors" of a single scale, or that they "use the same notes." Of course they use the same notes -- there's only so many notes. Every scale just uses notes from the chromatic scale, so really every scale uses the same notes.
Modes ARE scales. If you want to talk about modes then you are talking about distinct but related scales. You can (and should) relate them to major scales. But the major scale you need to relate them to is the one that shares the same tonic!
You don't talk about A minor as it relates to the F Hungarian scale. Well, you can, but I wouldn't. So why would you talk about the D Dorian as it relates to C Major??
Now the one place this gets confusing is that the Ionian mode is the major scale and the aeolian mode is the minor scale, so the relative minor is aeolian mode. But here we're getting into a function of key signature and not of intervalic relationships. It's best to just understand that as a special case and get on with it.
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST
cnev, that's a great question. Fretsource is right, they're different tonal centers, and that makes all the difference.
But when you put modes (or any other scales) into practice, there are lots of different approaches. And for that, I look back to what a composition teacher once told me - if you don't like what you've doing, change just ONE thing. His point was that a decent composition (or improvisation) has a sense of organization to it, and you want to keep an overall structure. Playing with too many variables at once ends up leaving the results to chance - what I call "poke and pray" playing.
So as you start to solo using modes, use just one mode for a whole piece - you might play D Dorian over a D minor vamp of Dm - Gm for example. You'll get used to the possibilities of each mode by itself. But when you find that too limiting, you can keep the organization (the modal relationship) but change one thing - the tonal center. In this case, you could use D Dorian over the Dm chord and G Dorian over the Gm chord.
You'll be changing keys, and of course fingerings, because one "uses" C major and the other Bb major notes. But now you'll be relating the accidentals - the Bb and Eb tones - to what's happening in the harmony: Bb is the third of a Gm chord, so you're not getting the same conflict you would using D Dorian (with its B natural) throughout... and you'll have Eb as an option - it will resolve down to D (a chord tone) putting a new tension in your toolbox.
The hard part in growing as an improvisor is learning to think about what you're doing at the same time as you're doing it. But once you can do that, you're leaving the realm of the "poke and pray" soloists, and you're starting to acquire tools that you can use - or ignore - to get your message across deliberately.
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OK KP I'm starting to kind of get what you are saying and just a couple more questions you wrote "So why would you talk about the D Dorian as it relates to C Major??
Now I just saw Note posted a response so maybe it will answer my question but going back to KP's quote because that's always how I would see these written for C major:
C major (CDEFGAB) has the same notes as D dorian,(DEFGABC) E phrygian,(EFGABCD) F lydian, (FGABCDE)etc.
So wouldn't D Dorian be a scale you could play over a progression that had the tonal center as C major?
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
Nope - because you'll get one of two results:
1. You'll react to the background... so even though you think you're playing in D Dorian, you'll unconsciously be resolving to C major. So your solo will actually be in C Ionian (or major).
2. You'll ignore the background, and create a solo in D Dorian. Now the tonal center of the melody won't match the tonal center of the harmony - you have two tonalities present at once (bitonality). It'll sound like you're not matching the chord progression.
But you COULD play in C Lydian or C Mixolydian over a C major progression. The F# or Bb note will be 'out of key', but your resolutions will work.
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So if we look at the modes of Cmajor, C - Ionian, D - Dorian, E - Phrygian I wouldn't actually want to use D dorian or E phyrigian to solo over a progression that has C major as the tonal center so this gets me back to KP's intervallic thinking which now seems to be the much better way to lok at these I coul duse one or several of the C - Modes like, C - Dorian or C Phyrigian which would both have distinct scale patterns?
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
OK KP I'm starting to kind of get what you are saying and just a couple more questions you wrote "So why would you talk about the D Dorian as it relates to C Major??
Now I just saw Note posted a response so maybe it will answer my question but going back to KP's quote because that's always how I would see these written for C major:
C major (CDEFGAB) has the same notes as D dorian,(DEFGABC) E phrygian,(EFGABCD) F lydian, (FGABCDE)etc.
So wouldn't D Dorian be a scale you could play over a progression that had the tonal center as C major?
Note just pointed out why it doesn't work.
I'll add in that your confusion comes precisely from that method of presentation. And it's shared by a lot of people. That's why the key to getting modes is to focus on intervals. Then you're going to be understanding the modes as scales with their own individual properties and you'll stop thinking about them as shapes.
D Dorian is not a C Major scale starting on another note. It is a D scale with a particular interval pattern all it's own.
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST
Eureka finally yes KP that's kind of what I had thought all along but when presented using the "pattern" method for lack of a better term people always list the modes of C Major as C - Ionian, D - Dorian etc but these are really not related modes they just happen to have similar fingerings that work in different tonal contexts whereas the way you wrote them out relative to C those all do relate to C and although they don't have the same fingerings they will work in a peice with C major as the tonal center.
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
Eureka finally yes KP that's kind of what I had thought all along but when presented using the "pattern" method for lack of a better term people always list the modes of C Major as C - Ionian, D - Dorian etc but these are really not related modes they just happen to have similar fingerings that work in different tonal contexts whereas the way you wrote them out relative to C those all do relate to C and although they don't have the same fingerings they will work in a peice with C major as the tonal center.
It looks like you've got it, but there's another aspect you need to be clear about, which is how the notes of the mode, relate to the chord.
If the chord is C major, its notes are C E & G. So look what happens when you play any C based mode against that chord.
C Ionian = CDEFGABC - All the notes of the chord are present in that scale - so there will be no conflicts and your solo will sound100% Ionian - or major
C Dorian = C D Eb F G A Bb C- Here you have a conflict. The C major chord contains E but you're playing Eb. The result might be interesting but it won't sound Dorian. Dorian is a minor mode but it can't possibly sound minor if there's a C major chord being played at the same time.
C phrygian = C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C - Same problem (maybe "challenge" is a better word :D )
C Lydian = C D E F# G A B C - no conflict here. All the chord tones are present - so your solo will sound Lydian
C Mixolydian = C D E F G A Bb C - Again no conflict - You can get the Mixolydian sound with your solo
C Aeolian = C D Eb F G Ab Bb - Conflict again: Eb in solo (it's a minor mode) - but E in the chord
C Locrian = C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb - Double conflict here - Eb and Gb in the solo against E and G in the chord.
So as you can see, and as Noteboat mentioned, the only ones that you can play that retain their modal quality over a C major chord are the major modes C Ionian, C Lydian and C Mixolydian. All the others will contain at least one clash. That doesn't mean they can't be used, but the result will be chromatic, rather than modal.
However, consider those other modes when played over a C minor chord progression and you'll see that the modes witha b3 are usable over a C minor progression.
C minor is: C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
So the C minor chord is: C Eb G
C Dorian = C D Eb F G A Bb C -- this will sound fine over a C minor
C Phrygian = C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C - no problems
C Aeolian = C D Eb F G Ab Bb C - that's fine
C Locrian = C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C - umm .. a challenge!
And now, btw, you can see why Locrian is often called a "theoretical" mode. It is not possible to treat it sanely along with tertiary harmonies. You can use it, of course, but it is not particularly useful because of the b5.
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST
