inversion question

Hi, Derp, and welcome to Guitar Noise,

To a certain extent, the answer to your question is "Yes", but you'll need to accept that if you use an inversion the voicing is going to be different and the overall sound is going to be affected. When using inversions/ slash chords, it's always helpful to have the root played in the bass - otherwise the listener gets used to hearing the inversion, and the brain sorts the lowest note out as the root and tells you it's all out of tune.

We use inversions a lot on the guitar because it's not always possible to get exactly the right voicing like you can on a piano - the A-shape across all six strings uses the 5th in the bass, making a simple chord of "A" an A/E slash chord in reality, and so on. Likewise the C-shape across all six strings which uses the 3rd in the bass making it a C/E.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Alan :-)

Inversions are mainly used to smooth out the bass. Say you had the progression A E F#m, you might want to play the E as a E/G# (G# being the major third of E) to make it sound different. According to my harmony book, it's also used to eliminate consecutive fifths. I can't explain it that well, so it might be worth a little research.

In the end, it all comes down to whatever sounds good. Most inversions are done with the third in the bass, although you can use the fifth or seventh.

Consecutive 5ths - apparently, it's a bit amateurish to use them in your melodic writing - occur when your melody is (for example) A, G, F and your bass line is D, C, Bb.

You can still use the Dm, C, Bb chord sequence, but if you switch to Dm/F then your bassline goes F, C, Bb - removing the problem of consecutive 5ths.

Consecutive octaves are frowned upon, too.

Best,

A :-)

So are big jumps in the melody line.  Look up voice leading for more on the topic.

Great,thanks guys!

I think Alan's first answer answered my question for the most part.

I understood the first two replies well enough but now you guys have  me curious about this consecutives 5ths business.Is this the same as parallel 5ths? Not that I have any idea what parallel 5ths are about mind you.Doesn't that have something to do with the harmony?Or is that the point here with harmonizing the melody?

okay lets try and sort this...
Alan,
Consecutive 5ths - apparently, it's a bit amateurish to use them in your melodic writing - occur when your melody is (for example) A, G, F and your bass line is D, C, Bb.

melody   A,G,F
bassline  D,C,Bb

okay those are a 5th apart,descending in consecutive scale steps by whole steps
You can still use the Dm, C, Bb chord sequence, but if you switch to Dm/F then your bassline goes F, C, Bb - removing the problem of consecutive 5ths.  

Consecutive octaves are frowned upon, too

melody   A,G,F
bassline  F,C,Bb

okay F and A are a 3rd apart,and C to G is a 5th as is Bb to F so those are still 5ths....

So help me understand the theory here.
I seem to be missing the point....or just missing something.

thanks alot,

Derp

You've got the idea, it just needs a bit of clarification, I think.  When Alan spoke of consecutive fifths, it is the same as parallel fifths.

Parallel movement is when two voices move in the same direction by the same amount of chromatic steps.  The reason for the restriction in 'common practice' harmony (the harmonic structure from roughly the time of Bach until the early 20th century in 'classical' music) is that you're working with four voices, for the most part, and if two of them keep doing the same thing it makes the music sound pretty hollow.  Parallel octaves are frowned on too, as Alan notes... so are parallel unisons in arranging -- if two instruments both play middle C, and one moves to D, the other should move to something else.

This prohibition has exceptions -- it doesn't apply to all fifths, only perfect ones.  It's perfectly acceptable for one voice to move from C to E while the other voice moves from G to Bb; the resulting diminished fifth breaks the monotony of the parallel fifths rule.  You're right that the solution Alan posed still leaves one pair of parallel fifths :)

Tom

Have you ever played a song written using open/folk chords, but using only barre chords instead?  It sounds very weird, because the songwriter is using the voicing of the open chords to compliment the vocal melody line.

On the piano, it's very easy to see, for the chords C-F-G:

parallel:
G-C-D
E-A-B
C-F-G

not parallel:
G-A-G
E-F-D
C-C-B

Also, as Nick aluded to, check out close harmonies and barbershop; each voice changes chord contribution with almost every note.

How did I get here?  How do I work this...

Laz

thankyou for the useful information guys !!!!
I appreciate it,this is helping me. :)

So obviously I could use this info to harmonize an existing melody,right?

Could this not be used as "an" device for generating melodies as well?

Don't melodies exist in those voices?
And couldn't I say find melodies hidden within the chord changes of popular songs and then reharmonize them then? Or generate my own ideas using this as well?

It just seems like phrasing isn't just "improvised" at first.That melodies and phrases are studied first and written at first long before you become a heavy enough musician to just magically shoot them out of your fingers.

I'm on a quest for coherent lines and meaningful phrasing here and it's been pretty rough going thus far.

After long hours of study (on the internet) this is where I've landed.Squarely on chords!

I'm very analytical.Everything I've grasped so far has come from a piece of theory that I at first  a.) somewhat grasped or understood the concept of,  and b.) tried the concept out,then was able to apply the concept.That seems to be the only way I've gotten anything thus far.

Any advice is welcome.Every little bit helps!

appreciate the help,

Derp

Coherent lines and meaningful phrasing take a while to develop... people call the time leading up to achieving that 'paying your dues' :)

A few pointers for the analytic in you:

Coherent lines have 'shape' to them.  Pick out some solos you like and draw them out, using a rising line when tension is building, and a descending line when tension is being released.  You'll probably end up with a sawtooth shape that's generally rising as a whole; this creates the interest level in the listener.

With that in mind, pay attention to the techniques being used to build and release the emotional tension in the line:  is it being done with rhythm, melody, or harmony?  Rhythms can create harmony by speeding up (either in overall tempo, or by using smaller note values), or by doing the unexpected, as in syncopation, which leaves us 'waiting' for the note we expect.

A few ways melody lines build tension: by their shape (rising or falling overall), by skips or leaps as opposed to steps, or by repeating phrases.

Harmonically, dissonance with the underlying chord structure creates tension, and consonnance releases it.

When you play, you're making choices... from any given note, you have four choices for melodic shape:

1. play a higher note
2. play a lower note
3. play the same note again
4. use silence

Ok, so that's the analyitical/learn from where others have been part.  As far as developing a good improvisational technique yourself,  start simply.  Once you have the tools, you can pick and choose what to do; while you're developing a specific tool, make that the ONLY thing you do while you observe what works and what doesn't for your ears.

I had an improvisation coach years ago, and at our first lesson the very first exercise was: he played a chord progression, and I soloed over it... using only F notes.  The only variations I could create were rhythmic, or by changing octaves - very tough to make some variety.  Later exercises added another note (Bb as I recall), let me improvise freely as long as I played ONLY eighth notes with no rests, etc.  It takes a while, but eventually the instrument becomes your voice, and you sing.

Tom

-excellent-

thankyou Tom!!  ;D

I really appreciate such a thoughtful and helpful response ;D

And thankyou to everybody else too!!!

This is the kind of great advice I have sorely needed.
I am so glad I stumbled on this site!

Guitar noise rules!!!