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Michelle, ma belle

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(@sapho)
Estimable Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 133
Topic starter  

In the Beatles song, Michelle Ma Belle there's a run progression I can't quite figure out and I don't have the chord sheet music.
Em/maj7, Em7, Em6, Am - , B - // lyrics= "I will say the only words I know that you'll understand"
So far I've tried:
x2211x, x20000, x22020, 002210 -, xx4441 - //
Somehow I don't think this is correct and it's the slashed chord/maj7 that throws me everytime.
Please advise.
Also is it correct to say that the Beatles often use similar run progressions in different songs?
Thanks.

Portamento - The ability to move from a wrong note to the right one without anyone noticing the original mistake.
Harmonics - The buzzing sound that string instruments make.
Impromptu - A carefully worked out composition.


   
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(@greybeard)
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Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 5840
 

Em/maj7 = 021000
Em7 = 020000
Em6 = 020020
Am = 002210

I may have miscalculated, but that's how I figure the chords

I started with nothing - and I've still got most of it left.
Did you know that the word "gullible" is not in any dictionary?
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(@musenfreund)
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Joined: 22 years ago
Posts: 5108
 

The Scores list the chord progression as:

Fm
Fmmaj7
Fm7
Fm6
Bbm/F

This tab seems to agree in the main with the scores:
Michelle, Powertab score.

If you don't have the free powertab editor, which you need to read the tab, you can find download instructions here:

Powertab Home

Hope that helps.

Well we all shine on--like the moon and the stars and the sun.
-- John Lennon


   
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(@sapho)
Estimable Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 133
Topic starter  

I am preparing for an audition with a jazz program so I have alot of questions about the requirements. i.e. when they ask me to play 2 octave major scales - if an octave is 7 notes plus the tonic then what is the 15 or 16 notes that I'm playing when I play 2 - 4 notes per string across all 6 strings? I can play the simple C scale- do re mi.... or 15 notes from the 8th fret across all 6 strings. I suppose they want more than the do, re, mi..., right?
They ask me to improvise the progression: I, VI, II, V ...is this what the jazz sound is based on? ON a C scale I =C , VI = a, II= d, V= G ?? or do, la, re, so ?
I must prepare a 'chord melody' on a std.jazz or pop tune of my own arrangement where I am "playing the melody of the tune and also playing my own chordal accompaniment to make the guitar a complete self contained instrument." (can I just wing it here? with my La Vie en Rose arpeggio rendition?)
As I work my way through Barbara Wharram's "Elementary rudiments of Music", on page 14 - major scales and their key signatures lists No. of #'s or b's - Sharp keys - Flat keys. 0-C, 1-G-F, 2-D-Bb, 3-A-Eb, 4-E-Ab, 5-B-Db, 6-F#Gb, 7-C#-Cb. What does this mean?
When I play the C minor melodic the ascending is in 'tonic major' while the descending is in 'lowered semitone'. I have alot of research to do before I understand this concept.
I've just accomplished 'the clawhammer' so I guess that's 'harmonic' - two notes played at the same time.
Also, I have a copy of "IMprovising Jazz" by Jerry Coker. I'm learning how to spell out a major scale which accompany chords.
This feels like 'work'. When will it be 'fun'?
Any help is appreciated. More questions to come.

Portamento - The ability to move from a wrong note to the right one without anyone noticing the original mistake.
Harmonics - The buzzing sound that string instruments make.
Impromptu - A carefully worked out composition.


   
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(@noteboat)
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Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

Wow, Sapho, you're throwing out a lot of stuff there! I'll take 'em in order :)

1) A two-octave major scale is a major scale that covers two octaves. Whatever note you start from, you need to end two octaves higher, and there's more than one way to do that. For example, a two octave C major scale can be done:

---------------------------------------------7-8-
--------------------------------------8-10------
----------------------------7-9-10--------------
------------------7-9-10------------------------
--------7-8-10----------------------------------
-8-10--------------------------------------------

or you could play the exact same notes this way:

-------------------------0-1-3-5-7-8-
-----------------0-1-3-----------------
-----------0-2-------------------------
---0-2-3-------------------------------
-3-------------------------------------
----------------------------------------

They really don't want any more than the do-re-mi pattern; they just want to see that you can carry it through two octaves.

2) The basic jazz progression is ii-V-I. They're extending it up the harmonic series by one chord, and asking you to improvise over I-vi-ii-V-I. You've got the chords right: in C, that's C-Am-Dm-G-C, although in jazz it's common to use chord extensions, so you'd have something like Cmaj7-Am7-Dm7-G7-Cmaj7 to play over.

3) Chord melodies are a big subject. I think there's a lesson or two on chord melodies on this site, but the basic idea is this: you've got a melody, and you've got a chord progression. If the melody note is in the chord, play an inversion of the chord that puts the melody note 'on top', and if the melody note isn't in the chord, play it as a single note.

To give you an example of how this works, let's take the first few notes of the tune "On Top of Old Smoky", with a chord accompaniment noted over the melody (you'll usually see this in standard notation, but tab is easier here):

C...........F..................C

-----------8-5---------5---
------5-8------6-6-8----8-
-5-5------------------------
-----------------------------
-----------------------------
-----------------------------

You'll want to find chord voicings that have 'top notes' that match the melody, like this:

---------3--8-5---------5-3-
------5--5--6-6-6-6-8-6-5-
-5-5-5--5--7-5-5-5----5-5-
-5-5-5--5--7-7-7-7----7-5-
-3-3-------------------------
------------------------------

The single note G in that example comes about because the G note in the melody isn't a chord tone of F major.

4) The beginning of a piece of music has a "key signature" with sharps or flats. The number of sharps or flats tells you what key you're in - if there are four sharps, you'll be in the key of E.

The E major scale will have four sharps:

E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D#-E

so it's easier to write F#-C#-G#-D# in the key signature than it is to sharp each note as it occurs in the music.

5) That's certainly an awkward explanation of the melodic minor - it's no wonder you're confused. You can think of any scale as two four-note groups (technically called 'tetrachords') that combine to make a scale. In C major, you've got:

C-D-E-F.......G-A-B-C

as your two tetrachords.

C natural minor has the notes C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C, for these two tetrachords:

C-D-Eb-F.......G-Ab-Bb-C

A melodic minor scale is the natural minor with the 6th and 7th notes raised when you go up, but not when you go down. So, going up you have:

C-D-Eb-F.......G-A-B-C

You can see that the top tetrachord in C melodic minor ascending is the same as the top tetrachord in C major. That's why she says it's the 'tonic major', but in my opinion that's a hard way to learn it.

6) Clawhammer style hits two (or more) notes at once, which creates a harmony... but it's not the same thing as a harmonic minor.

Learning the basics can be a lot of work. If you want to play jazz, there's no getting around it - you'll have to learn the technical stuff. Be sure you do just some playing - both while thinking about, and trying to apply, the theory stuff... and while you don't think about it at all It's supposed to be fun - that's why we say we 'play' guitar :)

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@greybeard)
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Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 5840
 

i.e. when they ask me to play 2 octave major scales

If you start at C on the low E (8th fret), the first octave will come two strings and two frets higher (4th string 10th fret). The next octave will be the similar, but one extra fret because of the G-B tuning - 2 strings, 3 frets. Rather than go 5 frets higher than the root on the low E, we just go one more string higher and back to the same fret as we started on - the 8th fret.

If you go here:

G major

This gives you G major. Take the first pattern and move the whole thing up the fretboard so that the orange I is on the 8th fret (instead of the 3rd). There you have a 2 octave C scale.
I must prepare a 'chord melody'

A chord melody is a combination of rhythm and melody (lead). You need to replace some of the notes in the melody with chords of the same note (e.g. a c note with a c chord). The chords tend to come on strong or medium beats, rather than the weak ones.

If you want an idea of what one looks like, I made a stab at a chord melody version of Auld Lang Syne

https://www.guitarnoise.com/article.php?id=413
As I work my way through Barbara Wharram's "Elementary rudiments of Music", on page 14 - major scales and their key signatures lists No. of #'s or b's

Every key is made up of a sequence of notes with predetermined intervals. Sometimes this causes notes to used that are not natural (i.e. they are either sharp or flat). If you look at a "circle of fifths" and write out each key, you can see quite easily where these flats and sharps come from.

Try here

I started with nothing - and I've still got most of it left.
Did you know that the word "gullible" is not in any dictionary?
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My Articles & Reviews on GN


   
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(@sapho)
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Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 133
Topic starter  

Thanks to Note & Grey for your helpful replies. 1. If there is a 'blues scale' is there also a 'jazz scale'? Is it a combination of 'harmonic minor' scales and 'melodic minor' scales? (the audition requires 2-octave major, harmonic minor and melodic minor scales)
2. How can a 'folk' singer/guitar player best adjust to becoming a 'jazz' singer/guitar player?
3. At a 'group jam' I was told that once you know one scale pattern you can do them all but when written out they obviously are not the same. What did these guys mean? They seemed 'surprised' to see the patterns written out.
4. Can a song begin in C and end in G but be in the key of G? Is it a hard fast rule that a song remain in the same key all through?
5. Can you suggest some simple 'standard jazz tunes' that would be good to play in a jazz audition?
6. If a '2-octave' scale always ends on the root note (the 15th note) then why do the pentatonic major, minor and blues scales end after 16, 11, 14 or 13 notes?

Portamento - The ability to move from a wrong note to the right one without anyone noticing the original mistake.
Harmonics - The buzzing sound that string instruments make.
Impromptu - A carefully worked out composition.


   
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(@noteboat)
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Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

Ah, the next round :)

1) There are lots of 'jazz scales'. The Dorian, Lydian, and Mixolydian modes are used a lot, and so are altered scales like the 'Bebop' scale (1-2-3-4-5-6-b7-7-8).... so there's no one scale; it depends on what you're doing in the music.

2) I think you can best adjust by listening to lots of jazz, and learning a lot of chords. Get a decent method book, like the Berklee series, and learn to read. Then play jazz every chance you get!

3) They're surprised because most guitarists can't read. When you learn a 'closed' scale pattern - one that has no open strings - you can transpose it to any key by moving it up or down the neck. That's what they mean by knowing all the scales from a fingering.

4) Yes, a song can start in one key and end in another... many songs do just that. It's called 'modulation'.

5) There are lots and lots of jazz standards. A few good ones: All of Me, You Stepped Out of a Dream, Angel Eyes, Smoke Gets In Your Eyes, Somewhere Over the Rainbow, Stardust, Satin Doll, Sweet Georgia Brown, Take the A Train, Maiden Voyage. You can probably think of a dozen more along those lines.

6) Because the scales divide the octave into different numbers of notes. The major scale has seven distinct notes, so the octaves come at notes 8 and 15; the pentatonic scale has only 5 distinct notes, so the octaves come at 6 and 11. The blues scale has 6 notes, so the octaves come at 7 and 13. If you do a chromatic scale, which has 12 different notes, the octaves will fall at notes 13 and 25. Make sense?

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@ibty553)
Active Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 7
 

There is a jazz scale: the chromatic scale. Because the only note that gives you a really nasty conflict is the minor second, and you can just slide that down a half step.

I'm partial to Autumn Leaves, I learned my first chord solo on that.

Also, I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but you seem WAAAAYYYYY too hung up on the technical aspects of music. Just loosen up, chill out, and play whatever the fuck comes to your mind. Forget scales and modes and chords and theory, and for one jam session just play a bunch of notes. See how different things sound. Freak out, have fun.

But obviously, don't do this for your audition =P

A3 red, C5 red, F4 blue, F5 red. Bitches.


   
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(@sapho)
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Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 133
Topic starter  

Yes I am serious about the theory because I had to perform full songs before I knew any chords. I knew how to read music from my school days playing violin and french horn but I was out playing peace concerts to boost the morale of my audience before I knew how to properly strum the guitar. I was just holding the guitar. I knew the lyrics and melody, that's all. I thought the instrument would come in time and it has.
So now I'm analyzing the 2-octave major, minor harmonic and melodic minor scales. I'm going through them note for note to see the tone, semitone patterns. This is putting my 'performing energy' on hold but I LIKE knowing as much about the theory as possible. I wouldn't have asked about the 'modulation' question if those dinks at the jam hadn't confused me by 'calling out keys' that were wrong. I knew about modulation before but when those guys didn't know if you could change keys in the middle of a song and I assume they know more about theory than I do then I was confused too.
Yes, I like to have fun with music. In fact that's what keeps me going - the fun in it. But knowing the theory makes me more confident when I'm in a room with ding-dongs.

Portamento - The ability to move from a wrong note to the right one without anyone noticing the original mistake.
Harmonics - The buzzing sound that string instruments make.
Impromptu - A carefully worked out composition.


   
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