Hello everyone, I am new to this forum. I've been playing for quite a few years but just really now delving into the theory side of things.
I was messing around with some different chord progressions and embellishing with different modal scale ideas and came up with something like this D D D D /G G G G/ D D D D/ C C G G then back to D. All the while embellishing with short riffs and notes from the C major scale.
I understand of course that the progression revolves around the G major scale I V IV, and tonally centering it around the D should give a mixolodian feel? But the C major over the D gives a dorian feel? No? I noticed as well that D minor pentatonic consists of notes from the C major scale.
My question to you gurus out there is what key (mode) is this in, and am I way off on the modal concept. I do know that it sounds cool to me :)
Thanks very much,
Rick
Simply look at the scales:
G A B C D E F#
C D E F G A B
A D major triad is D F# A
The C major scale has an F rather than F#.
If you are playing that F as part of your riffs, it is of course the flat 3rd of the D chord. This will give the scale a minor feel over the D chord.
I would say (without seeing the score and how you're using the C riffs in relationship to the chords) that you're in G.
As for modes, I don't believe they serve any use other than to complicate discussions, so I'll leave that to someone who wants to perpetuate the madness :)
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST
I would say (without seeing the score and how you're using the C riffs in relationship to the chords) that you're in G.
And yet the chords keep coming back to D. It seems this is a work in progress, so the OP still has lots of room to establish a key center. There are lots of ways to do that; emphasizing one chord by returning to it repeatedly is one way. If you play a note or chord often enough, I figure you're in that key. :)
As for modes, I don't believe they serve any use other than to complicate discussions, so I'll leave that to someone who wants to perpetuate the madness :)
Not me, King. Theory is hard enough without them.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa
If you play a note or chord often enough, I figure you're in that key. :)
That's actually not true. Indeed, it's very often precisely the opposite. That's even more the case when you're talking about tonics, dominants and sub-dominants.
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST
If you play a note or chord often enough, I figure you're in that key. :)
That's actually not true. Indeed, it's very often precisely the opposite.
"Precisely the opposite" suggests there can be a composition in which a key center is expressed without ever stating the tonic chord. I'm sure there is an example out there. "Lowdown" by Boz Skaggs delays the tonic forever. "God Only Knows" by the Beach Boys plays hide-and-seek with the key center to devastating effect. I maintain however that, with what we have -- D D D D /G G G G/ D D D D/ C C G G then back to D -- it is hard to justify a key of G, given the norms of tonal tradition and particularly those of pop music. The composer can certainly make the overall composition in G, but we need more of the score to make that call.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa
Key means a lot of different things. What King is saying is that the key signature is G (and it MUST be)!
We know that because the F is sharp - it's in the D chord - and the C is not, because of the C major chord.
D might well be the tonal center, but it sure looks like a I-IV-V in G from the information we have.
Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL
If you play a note or chord often enough, I figure you're in that key. :)
That's actually not true. Indeed, it's very often precisely the opposite.
"Precisely the opposite" suggests there can be a composition in which a key center is expressed without ever stating the tonic chord.
The opposite conditional of If A then B is If A then not B. But since we're talking modality, or truth in judgment, it's a little more complicated. But the basic principle applies.
Not that formal logic matters to the discussion.
I maintain however that, with what we have -- D D D D /G G G G/ D D D D/ C C G G then back to D -- it is hard to justify a key of G, given the norms of tonal tradition and particularly those of pop music. The composer can certainly make the overall composition in G, but we need more of the score to make that call.
Sorry, the only key that makes sense given the information is G.
We do not need more of the score to make that assessment. If more of the score is provided, then the case could be made for another key. However, with the information provided at this point G is the only reasonable choice.
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST
Not that formal logic matters to the discussion.
Or grammar, for that matter, unless you can show me how something can be "even more the case" than "precisely the opposite."
What King is saying is that the key signature is G (and it MUST be)!
There is of course the option of using NO key signature and adding accidentals as needed -- but the point that "key" means many things is a good one. Key signature does not necessarily equal key center.
D might well be the tonal center, but it sure looks like a I-IV-V in G from the information we have.
It would be V-I-V-IV-I in G. Fine. Completed phrase, starts on the dominant, ends with a plagal cadence. Except it then goes back to D -- back to the "V" -- and from there...?
Myself, I cannot presume it's in G. Flatted seven chords are so common, particularly in a pop-rock format. If the OP is writing a guitar sonata, all bets are off; if the chord chart has "Driving Rock" written at the front and a repeat sign at the end of the fourth measure (which is how it's been playing in my head), I think D is at least a rational option.
Plus, there was this from the OP:
I understand of course that the progression revolves around the G major scale I V IV, and tonally centering it around the D should give a mixolodian feel? But the C major over the D gives a dorian feel? No? I noticed as well that D minor pentatonic consists of notes from the C major scale.
Clearly he's thinking of a D tonal center with modal implications. Key signature doesn't change that. Nor should it.
But the real point is that qualifying phrase, "from the information we have." And we haven't enough context of any kind. This is a composition question, not a theory question. Hey, iseeumhmm, write some more music for us!
edited once for coding errors...
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa
Not that formal logic matters to the discussion.
Or grammar, for that matter, unless you can show me how something can be "even more the case" than "precisely the opposite."
Modern formal logic systems are not limited to bivalent Aristotelian syllogisms. Given your initial statement indicated a relative degree of operation and a tendency towards belief, the appropriate formal logic equivalent to dissect such a statement would be one capable of handling modalities.
The compositional question is why the C major scale gives a minor sound over the D chord. That was answered.
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST
The compositional question is why the C major scale gives a minor sound over the D chord.
Did someone ask that? Here's the original question:
My question to you gurus out there is what key (mode) is this in, and am I way off on the modal concept.
That followed a clear statement of intent by the composer showing the tonal center is D (which I should have remembered way upthread -- might have saved some time). The question, then, is what kind of D is it in, not whether it's in some kind of D.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa
I simply don't read his question the way you are.
As far as I can tell, he is asking two questions. The first is:
tonally centering it around the D should give a mixolodian feel? But the C major over the D gives a dorian feel?
The answer as to why it has a minor feel is that the F in the C major scale is a b3 in relation to the tonic of the D chord.
The second is:
My question to you gurus out there is what key (mode) is this in, and am I way off on the modal concept.
The KEY of the progression in question is clearly G. Lacking his melody that is the proper answer.
The MODE being used is a question about melodic composition and can not be answered with respect to a harmonic progression (the only real information we're given!). The key of the harmony is G, period.
He may well be playing in D Dorian. Or he may be playing in G Mixolydian. Just because he plays a lot of D notes does not mean that is the tone of resolution. Given the way the question is worded (heck, frankly, given that it's a question about modes at all) I'm not ready to assume that the melody resolves to D. The OP may well be making the same assumption you did that merely playing a note a lot makes that the key.
Given a melody the answer might change. Without one, the answer is G.
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST
The KEY of the progression in question is clearly G. Lacking his melody that is the proper answer.
If by "key" you mean "key signature": Agreed. One sharp....
The MODE being used is a question about melodic composition and can not be answered with respect to a harmonic progression (the only real information we're given!).
The original post noted that C naturals suggested Mixolydian and F naturals suggested Dorian. Both observations are more or less correct, on their own, but using both takes him out of any one mode. Which composers are of course free to do.
The key of the harmony is G, period.
...If by "key" you mean "tonal center," which is invariably the definition I assume when talking about "key" -- he told us the intended tonal center upfront. Perhaps a more fruitful discussion would be about how s/he can reinforce the D tonal center.
Given a melody the answer might change. Without one, the answer is G.
Theory follows composition, not the other way around. It must. When theorists tell composers what to write, something is wrong. Theorists would have thrown Beethoven's First Symphony out. Theorists hated Wagner for his tonal ambiguity. Composers following theory accounts for the metric ton of bad dodecaphonic music written in the last century.
If the composer intends a D tonal center but we insist the tonal center is G, we're writing the piece for him. IMNSHO.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa
What we have of this composition is a harmonic progression.
We are asked what key that harmonic progression is in. We've agreed on that answer.
We're asked what mode the melody is in without being given the melody. There is no answer to that question.
We're asked about key and mode as if they are the same thing, giving the impression that the OP is a bit confused as to at least terminology.
I am aware that theory follows composition. I am in no way telling him what he is free or not free to write. I'm answering the question as asked without assuming information not available.
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST
So... the "key" of a piece is defined by its key signature.
Got it.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa
That progression may look like a I IV V in the key of G but according to the OP, it doesn't sound like one. He feels that D is the tonal centre (and he should know as he composed it).
He's not hearing it as a I IV V in G but as a I IV bVII in D - like many of those 60s songs (e.g If I were a carpenter). If it really was a I IV V in G, then he'd be hearing G as the tonal centre, but because of the way it's arranged/ composed, he isn't... so it isn't.
