Hi there!
Being a newbie on this forum –a quick introduction seems warranted, although I’m afraid that the post is too long all ready...
I am Norwegian and have “always” been playing something. Started out early on the violin, but gave it up after some 7 years. Continued with Bb Bass and Trombone in a Brass Band for some years. Discovered the guitar when I was 12. Discovered Bob Dylan when I was 16. For the last 18 (help!) years therefore, I have mainly been playing accoustic (steel string) guitar – a lot in some periods, often together with harmonica.
Last year I got an electric guitar (Epiphone Les Paul) and a band! ( http://home.online.no/~carolbo/musikk/tsr.html ) Instead of trying to constantly play as much as possible of every song on one single guitar (bass lines, fill) I have started to realise that it is possible to do completely different things on an electric guitar in a band. I know my chords pretty well (increasingly over the entire neck), I am not that far away from fluency in major, minor and blues scales in different positions (at least pentatonic), and I am relatively well trained in music theory. However, I have never applied any theoretical thinking to guitar playing before – I have just been playing! Hence, my question: on modes, off course.
I have read many excellent articles on modes here at GN. Still I feel some confusion regarding how to think about the actual use of different modes.
Just to make sure I understand things correctly:
A harmonised C scale is
Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 B7-5
OK then, a C scale starting at F should sound cool over a Fmaj7 chord (makes sense to me as a +7 in F is an E which is in a C scale). The same goes for a C scale to a G7 (the F is the 7)
But then, to take various modes for one chord: Obviously, a C scale staring at A (A B C D E F G – A aeolian) works perfect for a A minor chord. According to the reasoning above, a G scale (with 1#) starting a A: (A B C D E F# G) and a ditto F scale (with 1b: A Bb C D E F G) should work well too.
My tentative lazy approach to this is that what I should learn is not necessarily that A B C D E F# G is a Dorian A scale that works with A minor, but rather that when playing in minor key, sometimes it is cool to put an extra sharp on the sixth note to give it a Dorian sound, and sometimes a flat on the second tone gives it a Phrygian feel, if maj7 is played, a sharp 4th gives a Lydian sound, etc... Instead of learning new fingerings for new scales with names I don’t remember, it seems to me I can think of small modifications of scale patterns I know instead: +6 and –2 in minor, +4, to maj7 chords, -7 to 7 chords, etc. Any one strategy would take some thinking and practicing – but the second one less so, I think.
I guess this is a matter of “framing”. It seems to me there are two ways to think about this. Either I can think of a Doric D scale as a C scale starting on D, and being applicable to D minor, or I can think of it as kind of a D scale with some modifications (+6). Most writing on the subject seem to be grounded on the first approach, but the second seems easier to grasp and more readily applicable to actual playing for me. Am I far off the mark here? Have I missed anything important? Should I rather take the time to learn all modes and when and where to use them?
Actually I think this post has been useful to me even if I should receive no responses :) Apologize again for the lengthiness!
Lars
...only thing I know how to do is to keep on keepin' on...
LARS kolberg http://www.facebook.com/sangerersomfolk
Are you interested in jazz? Because if you're not then don't even worry about knowing modes, knowing that they even exist puts you in a higher area of playing then alot of lead players. I like the idea of thinking of it as extra raised or lowered notes rather then entirely new scales, but knowing the theory (which you seem to know quite well) seems like it would be good enough.
Steve-0
I guess this is a matter of “framingâ€. It seems to me there are two ways to think about this. Either I can think of a Doric D scale as a C scale starting on D, and being applicable to D minor, or I can think of it as kind of a D scale with some modifications (+6). Most writing on the subject seem to be grounded on the first approach, but the second seems easier to grasp and more readily applicable to actual playing for me. Am I far off the mark here? Have I missed anything important? Should I rather take the time to learn all modes and when and where to use them?
You're exactly right, alterations are the way to go! But only alterations to the major scale...
For example:
To get a a D Dorian...
you start with the D major
D E F# G A B C#
and flatten the 3rd and 7th
D E F G A B C
The second approach, alterations to a scale, is the most useful way to think of modes. While they can be thought of as major scales begun on a different note, there's not a lot of practical application for that concept. I think that most writing focuses on that concept because "start on the fifth note" is easier for someone not so well versed in theory to understand than "flat the seventh". Which is a shame really, since it can lead to very poor application of the modal concept.
I think you're exactly right with your thinking on modes.
Are you interested in jazz?
Yes
Do I play jazz?
No
I'll stick to my initial reasoning then
Thanks!
Lars
...only thing I know how to do is to keep on keepin' on...
LARS kolberg http://www.facebook.com/sangerersomfolk
I guess this is a matter of “framing”. It seems to me there are two ways to think about this. Either I can think of a Doric D scale as a C scale starting on D, and being applicable to D minor, or I can think of it as kind of a D scale with some modifications (+6). Most writing on the subject seem to be grounded on the first approach, but the second seems easier to grasp and more readily applicable to actual playing for me. Am I far off the mark here? Have I missed anything important? Should I rather take the time to learn all modes and when and where to use them?
You're exactly right, alterations are the way to go! But only alterations to the major scale...
For example:
To get a a D Dorian...
you start with the D major
D E F# G A B C#
and flatten the 3rd and 7th
D E F G A B C
Eh... why not modify minor scales?
To get a D Dorian I'll start with a D natural minor D E F G A Bb C
and sharp the 6th D E F G A B C (gives the B as a "leading tone" to C)
To get a phrygic I'll start with natural minor and flat the second
Off course this is theory - whether this is practical when playing is a matter not yet resolved.
Your suggestion is to stick to Major thinking and modify when needed?
Lars
...only thing I know how to do is to keep on keepin' on...
LARS kolberg http://www.facebook.com/sangerersomfolk
The second approach, alterations to a scale, is the most useful way to think of modes. While they can be thought of as major scales begun on a different note, there's not a lot of practical application for that concept. I think that most writing focuses on that concept because "start on the fifth note" is easier for someone not so well versed in theory to understand than "flat the seventh". Which is a shame really, since it can lead to very poor application of the modal concept.
I think you're exactly right with your thinking on modes.
Good to see! It's exactly the practical application I'm looking for. It seems to be a long way to go to think "Hey, this is a C7 chord - C is the V i Ab so if I do a Ab scale starting at C I'll get a mixolydian scale that works well" - instead of "Hey, C7 - I need a Bb in this C scale". Glad to see I'm not the only one.
Lars
...only thing I know how to do is to keep on keepin' on...
LARS kolberg http://www.facebook.com/sangerersomfolk
"Hey, this is a C7 chord - C is the V i Ab so if I do a Ab scale starting at C I'll get a mixolydian scale that works well"
Proves my own point maybe :oops: the V in F off course
Lars
...only thing I know how to do is to keep on keepin' on...
LARS kolberg http://www.facebook.com/sangerersomfolk
I guess this is a matter of “framingâ€. It seems to me there are two ways to think about this. Either I can think of a Doric D scale as a C scale starting on D, and being applicable to D minor, or I can think of it as kind of a D scale with some modifications (+6). Most writing on the subject seem to be grounded on the first approach, but the second seems easier to grasp and more readily applicable to actual playing for me. Am I far off the mark here? Have I missed anything important? Should I rather take the time to learn all modes and when and where to use them?
You're exactly right, alterations are the way to go! But only alterations to the major scale...
For example:
To get a a D Dorian...
you start with the D major
D E F# G A B C#
and flatten the 3rd and 7th
D E F G A B C
Eh... why not modify minor scales?
To get a D Dorian I'll start with a D natural minor D E F G A Bb C
and sharp the 6th D E F G A B C (gives the B as a "leading tone" to C)
To get a phrygic I'll start with natural minor and flat the second
Off course this is theory - whether this is practical when playing is a matter not yet resolved.
Your suggestion is to stick to Major thinking and modify when needed?
Lars
It might work for you now, but let's say you were telling a newbie how to play. To get a D dorian are you gonna tell him:
Take the major scale and flatten the 3, 6, and 7th. Now you have a D natural minor. Now sharpen the 6th note and you'll have a D Dorian.
Scale:
Major 1-2-3-4-5-6-7
Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Mix 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Aeolian/Natural Minor 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
Harmonic Minor 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
Melodic Minor 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
Chords:
Major 1 3 5
Minor 1 b3 5
7th 1 3 5 b7
Major 7th 1 3 5 7
Minor 7th 1 b3 5 b7
Sus 2 1 2 5
Sus4 1 4 5
Sixth 1 3 5 6
add 9 1 3 5 9
etc.
I'm just saying use alterations sparingly when not using the major scale. How would you like to remember the whole list above, but with alterations of the dorian mode or the lydian mode? :lol: :wink:
Eh... why not modify minor scales?
It might work for you now, but let's say you were telling a newbie how to play. To get a D dorian are you gonna tell him:
Take the major scale and flatten the 3, 6, and 7th. Now you have a D natural minor. Now sharpen the 6th note and you'll have a D Dorian.
...
I'm just saying use alterations sparingly when not using the major scale. How would you like to remember the whole list above, but with alterations of the dorian mode or the lydian mode? :lol: :wink:
OK - I think one of my "problems" is that dm to me is not an "almost D" chord, but it is another key with one b, instead of 2# . It seems unecessary complicated therefore to think of it as an alteration of D major.
Lars
...only thing I know how to do is to keep on keepin' on...
LARS kolberg http://www.facebook.com/sangerersomfolk
Are you interested in jazz? Because if you're not then don't even worry about knowing modes
thats not true. you can use modes more than you think. petrucci satch, and vai all use modes and they sont even play jazz as much as they do otherstuff. i use modes in a lot of my music, dorian, lydian and mixolydian are all great minor, and major modes...you can play a major scale right? thats the ionian mode. a minor scale? yea. thats the aeolian mode. i love to imcorperate modes in music.
Rock on.
i cant get that quote thing to work. haha
Rock on.
