Yet another post about Modes

blutic, it sounds like the problem is conflicting tonal centers.

Any scale has two qualities: tonality (the notes of the scale) and modality (the relationship of each note to the root). Since 'related' modes have identical notes, they have identical tonality - and the only reason one mode will sound different from another is by how well you manipulate the tonal center.

But it sounds like you're using TWO tonal centers - one in the melody, one in the harmony. And that's a recipe for confusion at best. When you're 'using the chords of G major' or playing 'over a G major progression'... well, you probably have a cadence. That's what gives a chord progression a feeling of a key, or tonal center - either a strong chord movement from tension to release (D7 -> G), or a progressive root movement in fourths, fifths, or steps that centers on G.

On top of that, you're playing a scale with identical tonality. So now you have the harmony driving towards G... and the melody driving towards something else. Either one will win out - but be diluted by the other - or... you won't sound very modal.

The solution is to use a VERY narrow set of chords, and to avoid any chord movement that looks like a cadence. Take a look at the chords in Miles Davis' tune "So What", which is a clearly Dorian tune:

Em7-Dm7-Em7-Dm7 (etc.)

In the B section, he modulates chromatically, going to Eb Dorian. The chords follow along:

Fm7-Ebm7-Fm7-Ebm7 (etc.)

Then he returns to the A section. The whole tune is a 32 bar AABA form.

But here's the best part... having set up the 'head' of the tune with those iii/ii chord changes in each measure, the solos start. The solo section is also in AABA form, using D Dorian in the A parts and Eb Dorian in the B parts.

The chords? Dm7 for the A sections, Ebm7 for the B section. There are NO chord changes within the solo sections!

This lets you create a total focus on what you're doing with the melody.

Most modal tunes are structured like this - very simple chord changes in each section, and no IV-I or V-I movements at all.

I've never heard that before, but it makes perfect sense. I guess the question becomes - are modes really worth fooling with for the casual player, or someone that is basically into music other than jazz (pop, rock, blues, etc.)?

I know they are good to know and the more you know the better you become, but it seems like a casual rock and roll player would be a lot better off fully learning to play in major and minor scales all over the neck, so they can develop that musical intution that lets you play from your heart without thinking about the scale.

I'll teach modes to perhaps one guitarist in 200 or so... so I guess they're not worth it for the average guitarist.

They're not just for jazz. But there's very little that can be done with modes that can't be done with a solid grasp of the major/minor scales and experimenting with chromaticism - the most practical approaches to using modes are through seeing them as chromatic alterations of basic scales.

Since most musicians (other than guitarists) couldn't care less about modes, I think their importance is overblown in general.

I came to the same conclusion this morning while reading Troy Stetina Total Rock Guitar book. He has one page about the Mixo mode. He explained that it's identical to the major scale but for the flatted 7th. He said it's rock's more typical "major" scale - more easy going, less conclusive and pure. So that got me thinking - major scale with flatted 7th, and everyone knows b7 are great in rock and blues. So why don't I focus on major and minor "modalities" and experiment around the scales (chromaticism) for flavor.

Problem solved.

I think this will help.

A good thing I do to ensure the modal solos sound like whatever mode your in is to realize the points of tension in each of the different modes. If you play a mixolydian then you flat the 7th, but then you have to take a mental step to realize that in the major scale the 7th is a point of tension, but in the mixolydian the b7 is a point of rest and the 6th becomes the point of tension. If you stress the 6 it just doesn't sound mixolydian, but if you stress the b7 it sounds smooth and awsome.

I wrestled with music theory awhile back and at first didnt get modes at all, I think the main problem is I didn't want to accept how simple they are. The fact that the same 7 notes can sound 7 different ways is confusing at first but I like to think of them as 7 unique scales and then they happen to form the same box shapes as the major scale but this is good for finding the notes only, you can't just do the same old riffs or it will just sound like a major scale.

A good rule of thumb is that any point of tension you change becomes a point of rest and vice versa. (ex. in lydian the 4th changes from a point of tension to a #4 a point of rest and the 5th gets a lot more tension. Iif you stress the #4 in your solo it sounds spacey and cool, but if you play 5ths all the time like you normally would in a major scale it just sounds bad) I don't know if it always holds true but its worked well for me so far. If you don't want to think about your lead for a second then it is nearly impossible to get a modal sound. And like noteboat said if you put in a 5-1 you pretty much crush and hopes of it being modal anymore

I suppose most guitar players that are into learning theory and such are afraid that if they don't learn about modes they may be missing something. They (or should I say we) want to have the ability to use all the tools we can to make music. However, lately I've come to the conclusion that it's better for rock/pop/country/blues guitar players to learn and master writing melodies and impovising with the pentatonics, major, minor, and blues scales, and not worry about playing the other modes until the aforementioned scales are mastered. I've heard to many players play brilliant solos using nothing but a minor pent scale in one position. So for the non-professional non-jazz playing weekend warrior rocker I think I'll forget about Dorian, Phyg, Mixo, Loc, etc. for now. Does anyone think that's a mistake? Will I really suffer if I don't learn to improvise in the Loc mode? ;)

I don't think you'll be missing anything.

Will I really suffer if I don't learn to improvise in the Loc mode? ;)

Nope... and even better, your listeners won't either :)

Locrian is the first 'theoretical' form in music - it didn't exist until Glareanus figured out the interval relationships between the church modes and the secular scales were indentical, but offset. After playing with it for a while, he rejected it as having no musical value.

Smart man, that Glareanus.

That's my point - why I picked that mode for the last question. Looking back, I've spent so much time trying to fully comprehend and learn to apply modal playing. For what? I play rock and roll. Will the Dorian Mode vs. the Natural Minor really make that much difference in my soloing? I don't think so - especially since I work in and around the scales anyway (chromaticism - the great catch all).

P.S. Why fool ourselves - all rockers play pentatonics anyway 8)

I don't think you should use modes to the exclusion of the major scale, 90% of the time if im soloing its a normal major or minor scale. But the modes really do sound different when you use them right. And you can write melodies from any scale, harmonic minor is on of my favorites cause it sounds so cool, the modes are just more scales to learn if you get board with to sounds that pents and so on give you. So you should think of them as tools to add some diversity to your sound, not something to play INSTEAD of a major scale.

You have to hear when its right to use them, I cant really get them all yet but I can identify harmonic minor when I hear it being suggested and know when the right time to use it is, the modes are the same way. If you try to use something weird when the song is screaming major scale it usually wont sound good.

Knowing the points of tension really helped me learn how to use them (and the major scale for that matter), and http://www.marktiarra.com/music/guitar_lessons_page2.html this site is pretty good, you can listen to recordings of him using the modes so you know what its supposed to sound like, and you can download a pedal tone to practice over, its pretty fun.

Hmmm. That Marktiarra site's pretty good. Maybe, just maybe..... Resist Resist