8 Songwriting Mistakes

Thx for the link. Very insiteful. Every little bit helps.

I found the article to be a collection of open doors and nonsense. I suggest you buy no book at all, shut off your internet connection, nail the door shut and just sit down with your guitar and recording device. Write a song, listen, think what YOU feel could be better, then do so. IMHO most 'songwriting books' are written by boring people who couldn't write a nice tune to save their life, so turned to writing books instead. If you have a soul, a mind, determination and vision you need nobody else at all. If you want to sound like everybody else then by all means follow the 'guidelines by the experts'.

I often receive comments on my music like "I dont get it" "that's just weird nonsense" etc. Well, maybe, but it's what I feel like doing. I can change my sound but what then would be the point of writing songs?

I'm not saying it's something to hang your songwriting career on. After all, songwriting is an art form and you can't really go to a textbook to create art. However, some textbooks can help in honing a skill. There are certain rights and wrongs about songwriting which reading about may help and keep you from driving down those pitholes. The artical was...ok, I see you point about being nonsense. After reading through a second time it didn't really say anything of huge value. Most information was common knowledge especially if you've written at least one song in your life. Not all the mistakes apply. I could name 8 songs that challange those mistakes and are still very successful.

The biggest mistake is being so afraid of making one you don't try.

i have read many 'songwriting' books and i think most if not all are rubbish.

learning creative writing/verbs/nouns/proper flow is important (we learn this in school) and it counts the most

eg a book i read said you HAVE to rhyme in patterns like AABA ABAB etc. thats rubbish. many good songs hardly rhyme at all.
it also said you cant rhyme sylables and other blah blah stuff.

THERE ARE NO RULES

creative songwriting is creative for a reason. the best way to learn is study the lyrics of the writers you like. and thats free!
over time things like catchyness and flow improve. but you cant get it from a book

Eh, I wouldn't go so far as saying there are no rules whatsoever...it just depends what kind of music you're trying to make. If you want to write completely abstract stuff that follows no form and you have no interest in impressing a large amount of people, then don't read a songwriting book which tries to map out the songcraft for Pop songs - don't read a book at all. Of course it is completely subjective, but from my experience people who say there are no rules generally write complete garbage that nobody wants to listen to anyway. It's kind of a like an obese person saying that you diets are a farse and it's healthy to be fat. My advice, read a lot of books - talk to a lot of people - listen to a lot of music - write a lot of music.

Actually, Coleclark writes very nice tunes. I'm not going to talk about my own music, but feel more then welcome to ask one of the 30.000 people who listened to my songs last year. But thanks for comparing me with an ignorant fat person, much appreciated. :roll: Again, there are no rules in music. Yes, there are books that describe what people did in the past and if your idea of composition is copying then by all means read that. Those 'rules' are also nothing but fancy labeling. The only thing that happens when you 'break' them is that your music no longer fits that specific genre, which is probably no problem as you'd otherwise wouldn't have done that.

By the way, I personally consider 'impressing a large ammount of people' a particularly lame goal but to each his own I guess. Welcome to GN.

Chill man -

In songwriting the word 'rule' is basically synonymous with the word 'outline'. How strictly you wish to follow them is up to you. Not to bash you, but by saying you're music is listened to 30,000 people in one year doesn't mean anything. 100 years ago that would have been an incredible feat, but nowadays technology makes this goal quite attainable for anybody with a guitar and an internet connection. Furthermore, just the fact that people listen to it doesn't mean your music has any positive value, whatsoever - so I'm a bit perplexed why you would even mention that. I haven't yet heard your music but judging by your aggressive defense of staying original and boycotting popular songwriting methodology, I'm willing to bet your music is an unstructured indigestible mess.

Thanks

hence the music 'scenes'

you want simple pop listen to good charlotte or other bands like that - verse chorus verse verse chorus chorus bridge chorus etc

simple 'rules' for simple music,

on the other hand listen to any music by 'fall of troy' and all those 'rules' are out the window. as is system of a down and many many more bands. many of which are as successful, mostly more so, than pop bands. there may be rules for the simple music that will catch peoples ear of the radio (ignoring that after one week of airplay theyll never want to hear the song ever again) but for other genres theyre are no rules. even the beatles. the songs on the white album followed no set structures, yet whose denying its one of the best albums of all time?

you can find hints and tips on genres of songwriting but you will never find a book that 'tells you how to do it'

thats up to you! thats whats so good about songwriting

Believe it or not, the Beatles followed rules. They were just much more complex than you could probably ever understand. And that's why they are Master Songwriters and you are not. It's no coincidence that they've had a ridiculous amount of number one hit songs - they knew what they were doing. Sure they innovated, but they knew how to craft songs that hooked you in, took you for a ride, and kept you listening over and over again.

It takes some serious knowledge to do that. If you don't believe it, then you are not fit to write "quality" songs. I stress "quality" because anybody can write a piece of crap song that only you and you're patient girlfriend wants to listen to. I'm sure you do it all the time. I would agree with the statement, "Most people who write songwriting books aren't qualified to do so". Because the desire to write songs and become "famous" is so widespread in our culture, writers capitalize on writing "dumbed-down" versions for the average person (consumer) to understand. Hence, AABA books. So I don't blame you that you aren't aware of the all the other amazing stuff out there, but I would have to assume that you are somewhat unintelligent and ignorant if you believe that that is all there is. And of course you understand why it's important to believe that your favorite artists just effortlessly ooze out incredible songs without following any rules....because it's part of the allure of the gifted musician.

It's supposed to be a secret; awesome songs affect your emotions, and to learn that there are mathematics and shit underneath all that is like discovering the Wizard of Oz hiding behind those curtains controlling everything. Well songs are the same way. All your favorite artists BUST THEIR ASS to make all their ideas work together...that's why they get paid big bucks and people adore them; they've paid their dues. People like you upset me because I see wasted potential. Choosing not to seek out knowledge on improving your talent is a complete waste driven by ego and ignorance. Do yourself a favor and abandon the whole "there's no rules - only emotion!" bullcrap and open your eyes. Songs are made to be listened to and enjoyed. There's substantial knowledge (rules) behind the ones that you like and i think it may be time to fix your definitions.

Riggles: Would you be so kind to get of your high horse and stop assuming things you have no idea of? You could have started by asking: do you have books, and if so, which ones. I've got plenty of theory books, starting with Fux' book on Baroque counterpoint, continuing with the more freestyle work by Prout and moving on to modern day composition styles. I've also got a bunch of books on modern production techniques and such. I've got guitar, piano and violin lessons on a weekly base, and spend a fair ammount of time on sightreading. My theoretical foundation is pretty sound for someone as new to music as I am.

But again: there are no rules, merely observations. And unless you are deaf you don't need a book to tell you those magic rules. I've never read any book worth it's pricetag that talked about 'rules' (except maybe Gradus ad Parnassum, but that was from a rather unfree period anyway, which is 'fixed' with later books on free counterpoint). If you'd take my music you would be (assuming you know your part and don't just talk out of your rear end) able to analyse it and stylistically compare it with people who work in the same style. However, I don't write those songs because I like to follow rules, the rules like to follow music.

Here's some tunes for you to check out:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=361288&songID=5349345 (mino piano&cello sonata)
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=361288&songID=5586279 (solo piano tune)
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=361288&songID=6139863 (psychedelic rock)
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=361288&songID=6081828 (rock&roll)
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=361288&songID=5796212 ('jazzy' instrumental)
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=361288&songID=6019801 (indigestible crap :P)

Maybe not perfect *yet*, but I'm pretty pleased with my progress. It's more then I could expect from myself, a student who started with his first chords the day I registered here and have to write, play and produce all parts myself.

One thing I have to say is that you shouldn't forget that one man's indigestible crap is the other man's favourite music. I love Syd Barrett, most people I know think he sounds like a drunken idiot and are glad Gilmour replaced him. That's all fine, to each his own, but I'm glad that Syd wrote his 'crap' so I can enjoy it. Maybe your goal as a composer is to write tunes the largest possible ammount of people can enjoy and earn a truckload of money doing so, I don't. Music is one of the only places left were I can do as I please without people telling me what to do or where to go. As a result some people really like what I do, a lot really hate it. That's cool, those who hate it will find their taste someplace else and those who like it will come back for more.

By the way, why not introduce yourself properly in the meet&greet forum, maybe even sharing some of your music. It's great to see someone new who is atleast passionate about songwriting/composition and not afraid to speak his mind. But it's kinda a shame that you have to introduce yourself by slinging insults, I think we can have a better start then this. 8)

Deep breath everyone please. Some valid points here but let's not get personal.

Personally I don't think everything written about songwriting is rubbish. Here are two of mine:

Soongwriting for Beginners

Songwriting for Intermediates

Neither are about rules. They are just guides and they focus almost exclusively on lyrics.

Speaking of guides, here is one by my current favorite authority on the subject:

Songwriting: Essential Guide to Lyric Form and Structure: Tools and Techniques for Writing Better Lyrics

I do agree that reading a book to learn to write a song is silly. It's like reading a book to learn how to swim. You have to get wet to learn to swim. You learn to write songs by writing songs. You learn to write good songs by writing lots of bad ones first. Having some helpful suggestions from a book isn't going to hurt you though.

Nice thing about young people is their passion.
Maybe not a lot of tact or respect for others but a lot of passion.
I've yet to see anyone who's persuaded another by beating them over the head verbally.
But then they'll learn that themselves eventually and take another approach (if convincing someone of their views is important to them). Hopefully one that treats the other with some due (or even not due) respect.

As a side, one the discussions on the Suggestions Board was opening up the forum to discussions other than "guitaring".
And the moderator's response was that it lead to situations like this . . . shall we say over zealous, personal attacking, type of discourse.
So, the above is a case in point on keeping the discussions to just guitaring. And even then you're going to have the flames erupting. :D

And in closing, since we all love the Beatles and THEIR lyrics:
"All we need is love." (Is that the beginning of a pentameter?)

i havent taken offense because i know im a capable songwriter, and i write for myself not other peoples enjoyment, that being said many 'interesting' songs of mine eventually get shaped down towards more mainstream styles. thats just the way things are.

im sure ignar just sadly shook her head as well. it shows such a flimsy footing when people attack to prove a point.

"to each his own" works both ways and i wonder if its has occured to riggles that half the people that read his music may like it but the other half will think its [email protected] as hes incinuating our works are. i think we all started off on the wrong foot here.

my advice would be for riggles to abandon this username and start a new one, otherwise if he is actually serious about his passion for writing (and i hope and think he is) when he posts a song up here it will get ripped to pieces (probably)

it may not, but it would be a shame for good works to go to waste because of the people behind them....