Questions and questioning things

well, it makes things easier for some people, but i don't know what you sound like, so i can't tell you how you've gone without. what do you play? i do know that if i didn't know at least the chord shapes, i'd not be able to play much of what i can play, and i couldn't communicate with my bandmates. it also gives me a medium to play around in when i don't have any musical ideas. i'm a pretty damn good blues player, and half of it comes from just mindlessly noodling with the pentatonic scale until it became ingrained and certain patterns started to stand out.

Music, guitar, and life are all like a forest. There are several paths that lead into the forest, and no set way to choose which path to take. So you take one, by choice or by chance. You travel along, see, and learn new things, and eventually you reach a fork in this path. You can choose to go one of several ways or continue on the path you're on. If you choose to continue the path you are on, there comes a point when you realize that you are going in circles. Now, it's your choice to continue in the same circle, or, back track to the fork and choose something else.

There's a reason many of us "older" folks are known to say. I wish I had known that then..... Because, we realize the knowledge we lacked at that point in our younger years; could have affected the choices we did or did not make. And, it also affects the choices available to us.

Applying this ramble to guitar. You don't have to know any theory, but even though you are gettting along so far there will come a point that not having this knowledge will limit your abilities and choices. Does that mean you need to be a theory spouting expert? No. But a working knowledge of theory won't kill you, and it gives you more choices.

Learning Open chords. Like theory do you need these? Not really. But knowing a few versions of them, and being able to play them, gives you more choices. The music you like now may not require these. But 5, 10, years etc. from now; your tastes will evolve and include other things. Or, you'll be going in the same old worn out circle.

Like building a house. You MUST build a solid foundation first. Why? Simple, a house without a solid foundation may stand for a few years, but eventually it will collapse upon itself. So, build your house the way you want.

It's YOUR choice.

Remember the definition of psychosis is: "Doing the same thing, the same way, over and over again and expecting different results." :D

I think the main thing is, no matter what theory/praxis relation you're looking at, you'll be better at the practical parts if you know what's going on behind the scenes so to speak (i.e. theory). For example, you'll be a better driver if you know how your car works, a better computer user if you know how a computer works, a better cook if you know how foods and cooking methods interact. All three are things you can manage without any (or only a little) background knowledge, but that you'll do much better if you have some.

The trouble with theory is - it's not like math or physics. "Prove it" doesn't have a response except the teacher thowing up their hands in frustration.

Theory is just a set of organizational labels. We hear a sound and give it a name (say, perfect fourth)... but in other situations, that exact same sound can have a different name (like augmented third). Theory is important because it's convenient to name things, and useful that we all give them the same names.

Now the usefulness of theory is something else - that I think can be demonstrated. Say you've come up with a chord progression, and you like it... but it's the same as lots of other songs, and you wanted something different. Theory will tell you which chords have similar notes - that you can substitute Am for C because they both have C and E notes in them.

If your solos are sounding stale, theory allows you to record or write them out and examine them. Maybe you're ending every phrase on the fourth or sixth note of the chord - theory will tell you the notes that will work better to give you 'consonance' (the feeling the phrases are blending with the chords)

If you create a song with an odd rhythm, theory will help you explain the accents to other musicians, because the labels theory applies to things makes up a common language for musicians.

As to why you've managed to get by without theory, that's pretty easy. You haven't. You're already using the basics of theory - I see that in your posts. Every time you call something a C chord or an F chord, you're using the basic labels that theory has supplied. And doing that makes playing a lot easier than saying "ok, next chord I put my fingers here, here, and here" - because the labels of theory let us associate things (notations, chord names, fingerings) with the sounds they represent.

A bit more theory will tell you why those are both major chords, why the two work well together, and how to find other places to finger them on the guitar. A little more theory will tell you how to make those chords major, minor, seventh, diminished, or augmented.

There are many fine players who don't know squat about theory. There are some players who know lots of theory and still don't play well. But whatever your level, theory will let you think about the music in concrete ways, and that's a time-saver if nothing else. I mean, just in major chords you have twelve different ones - and of those, probably eight will sound decent in a given situation, and four will sound like garbage. Knowing which ones you won't like in advance will let you do the same amount of useful experimentation in 2/3 of the time.

I have to say that STUDYING (note that theory is always there just some people understand it intuitively) theory has been helpful to me in understand the whys. Why does certian chords sound good together? Why does make an suspended chord and how can I translate that to other chords? It's just another tool in the toolbox.

"Basic chord shapes" -- because knowing the basic chord shapes of E, C, D, A and G, plus their extentions will allow you to play all over the guitar with some confidence because once you add a barre, you can move those chords anywhere. For example, the F chord is just the E chord shape moved down one fret and barred.

"Scales and Keys" -- because not knowing them will make it impossible for you to adequately play in entire genres of music. Sure, maybe you're not interested in those genres now, but one day you may be. For heavy metal all you need to know is the box shapes and you can call it a day. That isn't true in every style of music. More importantly, for figuring out problems in your own playing, discovering new ideas, and just freeing yourself up to understand music at a deeper level, these are very important. If you don't understand keys and scales, you can't really understand what's going on in a song like "Giant Steps" for example . . .and you sure as heck can't play it.

Getting on without them -- you haven't, as noteboat said, you're using them all the time. But you're using just the most rudimentary elements, and instead of joining the party you're standing in the doorway saying "I see all that great music happening, but I don't believe that coming in and joining the party will be fun. Prove it." The proof is in the pudding . . . 1000 years worth of musicians have said theory is important. And those who got on without knowing a lot of it all end up saying something like "I really wish I would have studied this more when I was younger" when they reach my age. If that's not proof for you, then nothing will be.

With my limited knowleged not withstanding, I would argue that you are looking at this the wrong way. Guitar theory is an answer to the questions of "Why?" Why does this chord shape work? Why can I move this scale shape anywhere on the guitar and it work? Why do power chords work the way they do?

Without the theory, you are just putting your fingers in the right places. Once you answer those "Why?" questions with some understanding of the theory behind it, you know why you put those finger there and it sounds good.

I think that this posts makes sense.....

OneWingedAngel said, Usually my response is "Oh yeah, prove it!" Suffice to say, I've driven most of my teachers insane

and....
I think what makes learning theory the hardest for me is people telling me I need to know it while I'm managing fine without it. So I tend to question it too much. I question everything too much.

First, no one is TELLING you what to do. Do whatever you want. If you want to learn theory, study it, if you don't, then don't.

It is fine to question things if you really want an answer. But if you are simply questioning people and ideas to upset people, this is not good.

You are young, it is very natural for young people to question the status quo. But as you grow older, many of the answers will come to you through experience. Unfortunately, many times we have to learn through "hard knocks" why things work best the way our parents and adults told us when we were young.

You will see, trust me.

Take guitar players here. Many have said they wished they knew more about theory. I would include myself there. I have been playing over 30 years. I guess I have done "just fine" as you say. But I really think I would be a better musician if I understood theory, especially when songwriting. Even after all these years of playing, I usually have to experiment to find a progression I hear in my head. I just poke around until I find the next chord I hear. This is time consuming, and often unsuccessful. Perhaps if I knew theory I could quickly find that next chord.

So, many experienced players have simply given you helpful advice. But nobody is telling you what to do.

They are just trying to help. :D

Theory is the language of music.
You can learn to speak and understand the English language for example without ever learning to read or write.
You can get through life just fine (I know several people like this) but you will always be limited on what you can do.
Music is the same way.
You can question everything in life and, in some respects, that is how we developed as a race.
Some things though come from hundreds, even thousands, of years of experience and knowledge.
You can take that vast experience and accept and build on it or you can start from scratch and make your own way.
Personally I choose to build on past experience as I am older and don't have enough time left in my life to build my own theories.

And frankly, there are some things in any field that the best answer you'll get right now is "that's just the way it is, but if you accept that and move on in a few more weeks/months/years you'll understand 'why.'"

For example, if you don't know calculus no one can tell you "why" planet's orbits are ellipses. You have to learn the math to understand the answer. So when a 6th grader asks "why aren't the planet's orbits circular, why are they ellipses?" The only answer that can really be given is "that's the way it works, there are some equations that explain why but it'll be a few more years before you will understand them."

Having a questioning nature is a great thing and should be applauded and encouraged. Having an obstinate and oppositional nature is a handicap to learning and should be overcome. There's often a fine line between the two.

actually, a good answer would be that a perfectly circular orbit is impossible because the gravity of the other planets would pull it out of shape.

actually, a good answer would be that a perfectly circular orbit is impossible because the gravity of the other planets would pull it out of shape.

But then why elliptical? Why not square? why not something other than an ellipse?

To understand why an ellipse, you have to understand calculus. Your answer is just "cause that's the way it is" worded differently.

And it doesn't tell us why a single planet system would also have an elliptical orbit.

Oh, and wow are we now off-topic :)

I think what makes learning theory the hardest for me is people telling me I need to know it while I'm managing fine without it.

So my question is, and this could be a loaded one, why are these things so important? And how have I managed to go without them?

If you read one of my replies in my Jingle Bell post you'll see I somewhat agree with you. You just want to play songs from your favorite artists....me too. To play tab theory isn't really needed unless you have to transpose to another key or something like that.

However I agree that it IS an important skill to learn. Since I teach physical education I'll use football as an example...take a player who spends hours everyday working on skills and conditioning but that's it. Now take the player that does all that PLUS watches game films and analyzes strategies...who will be the better player? Most likely the second guy.

But like I mentioned in my other post...you need to be READY to learn it. You'll get to that point eventually I'm sure. For now I suggest if you are enjoying what you're doing and happy with your progress keep at it. But just don't rule out learning theory all together.

take a moment and check out the thread on the Beginner's section. I player asked about hammer ons and suspended chords.

the posters were able to help because they used the common language...theory talk.

it is theory is helpful for that...to be sure.

I never bothered with theory. til now, and I find it helps me navigate the fret board. if I change the key of a song to fit my voice or anothers. by knowing some theory I knw whee the notes have to go.

another thing that seems weird. after having read a page or so about intervals when I go to play the guitar I feel more familar with the fret board. I find myself hitting the notes solid instead of hunting around.