Questions and questioning things

Most "Music Theory" would be more accurately called "Music Fact".

The way that our instruments are designed means that certain things go together in certain known ways to produce all manner of sounds and effects. Knowing how it works does help. It doesn't constrict you to follow rules or patterns if you don't want to. It just sheds very useful light on the whole process.

They say if you sit enough monkeys at enough typewriters for long enough one will eventually write something worth reading. But having some education and literacy is a better bet. 8)

You might eventually paint an interesting picture by standing with your back to the canvas and throwing paint over your shoulder, but studying with a master artist usually pay better dividends.

You want to be a poet? You could write a poem if you only knew ten words. But knowing a few thousand would sure broaden the range of what you could say and how you could say it. 8)

If you only ever want to bash out a bit of head banger rock then a small handful of power chords, a fancy outfit and some gimmicky make-up might well be all you need (hey, it's worked for others!).

But if you actually want to be a musician, then a bit more depth to your knowledge would be very handy indeed.

I'd like to be able to think of myself as a musician one day, so I study everything I can find. Long way to go yet - I'm still not confident to call myself anything but "Beginner Guitar Player". But one day..... 8)

Cheers, Chris

actually, a good answer would be that a perfectly circular orbit is impossible because the gravity of the other planets would pull it out of shape.

But then why elliptical? Why not square? why not something other than an ellipse?

To understand why an ellipse, you have to understand calculus.

Not really. First one would have to understand the laws of gravitation. But nobody actually does understand the why of gravitation -- we only know how to describe its behavior through empirical observation, and we know which mathematical language best predicts that behavior with some reasonable accuracy and precision. Calculus is fundamentally a mathematical methodology we use to manipulate and solve equations -- it's a self-consistant and self-complete language. In itself, calculus is not the reason for anything. Plus, IIRC, the correct mathematical language for describing (but not explaining) planetary motion is probably partial differential equations.

In a similar manner, there is very little in music theory that describes the fundamental why of music -- as in the why it sounds good or bad or emotional or cold. It is a theory only in the narrow meaning of it being "an accepted set of rules" that if followed, usually yield an particular and fairly predictable effect on a listener. There are not a lot of reasons in music theory. Nevertheless, music theory is the language of musical discussions -- just like mathematics is the language of physics. We can use each very effectively to describe and predict what is or will be, even if we do not really know true reasons.

I'm not trying to say theory is overrated or wrong or trying to rationalize not learning it. This thread happened because I was studying it, but the more I learn, the more questions I have. Like keys for example, they are notes that sound good together basically, but if I wrote a song using notes from one key but went out of the key half the time but it still sounded good...........am I really going out of key or did I just make up a key?

Other times, I question it out of sheer curiousity. Like once I was reading how to build major chords and how they are made of I-III-V (I think) but wondered why those notes were chosen and not something like I-II-III. But I wouldn't ever need to know why it's like that, but am curious.

It's funny you mention football coaches that watch games to analyze strategies, because I've done that, just more literal than you mean. Sometimes I got looking for pics to see how a person has their wrist or fingers for a chord, other times I'll see live performances and watch what they do. Sometimes I learn things that aren't even about playing the guitar, like one of my heroes, she was jumping around while playing. I was like "that is so cool, I have to try that!" Now what I learned from that?
1) It's a good way to distract you so you can play with feeling
2) I need a new strap
3) A guitar falling on your toe really hurts

I'm sure there's theory to explain that..........just not music theory.......

1) It's a good way to distract you so you can play with feeling
2) I need a new strap
3) A guitar falling on your toe really hurts

I'm sure there's theory to explain that..........just not music theory.......
I think a fella by the name of Newton has a few theories to explain that :D

So far, the thing that makes the most sense to me about theory is the quote from Walter Piston that David used on his 'Theory Without Tears' lesson. About how theory is how music has been written, not how it will be written.

And I should try that throwing paint over my shoulder, it sounds fun. I'm not trying to be smart either, I'm an artist so it would be interesting. Plus my mom gets the bathroom repainted, everybody wins! And I'm still not being smart, because I'm bound to miss the canvas...........alot.

This thread is got me closer to the answer to the question "What is theory?"

It's also answered the question of what I need in a teacher should I get one. I need someone patient to withstand my barrage of questions, that knows Newton's Laws of motion and is trained in first aid.

Casting my mind a loooooooong way back to school, Chemistry and Physics were split into two parts - theory and practical.....theory was learning was why something happened, experimentation (practical) was observing the actual happening....

Guitar playing could be classed in the same vein, study (or pick up) theory from books, get those fingers on the fretboard for practical....

The more you know before you experiment, the more you'll learn by experimenting....

I wish I'd had lessons when I started playing guitar 30 years ago, up till last year all I could manage was a few chords....but it's never too late, and by the same token, it's never too early to learn....

:D :D :D

Vic

Sometimes I got looking for pics to see how a person has their wrist or fingers for a chord, other times I'll see live performances and watch what they do. Sometimes I learn things that aren't even about playing the guitar, like one of my heroes, she was jumping around while playing.

I'm sure there's theory to explain that..........just not music theory.......

I've been learning Johnny Cash songs of late. The Boom-Chucks to keep the bass line going, very Johnny Cash. Saw Johnny Cash on CMT at one of his prison concerts. Heard those Boom Chucks, heard that bass line - coming from the guy standing behind Johnny playing the bass. Johnny was banging out chords it looked like to me. I didn't learn much about playing those boom chucks but I did learn that Johnny was so cool that he didn't have to play em. But I know what you mean, I'm looking at music differently now, I see the guitar players and see what they are doing. How they strum, pick and change chords. All very cool.

To answer your original post, you need theory for one reason (Edit: Ok, this is ONE reason ,there really are more, haha)...

When I tell another player that I want to do a blues in G, and he looks at me and has no idea what to do, it is extremly annoying. If you go play with a pianist, a sax player, any real musicians, they will say "Blues in G", and you'll be fumbling with the chords.

It's a lot easier for me to say "Blues in G", than it is for me to say, "ok, play a G, then a C, then back to a G for two measures, then a C for two measures, then a G for two measures, now a D7 for one measure, and a C for one measure, and a G for one measure, and then a D7 for another measure. Now do that all over and over again. What? You don't remember it? Oh, well what you have to do is, play a G for one measure...."

I can't tell you how irratating that is. Especially when it's with a guitarist that has been playing for a long time. New guys, yeah, I expect that. But if I think I'm playing with a musician, and find out I'm not, it's frustrating, and limiting, musically and time wise.

Think of it like this...We have a common language in the US, english (..well, a lot of us do). I could either say "I fell off a building" or I could say "After stepping off a brick structure, approximatly 500 feet tall, I proceeded to pass threw the air with a velocity of 100mph, for around 10 seconds, and I proceded to hit the ground with a force of ....." It's a lot easier if you speak the language we're all speaking, and you can just say "I fell off a building"

Ya dig?

I'm there, Taso.

Do you want slow or fast change?

From the top or on V?

:D

OWA, do you know what either of those two questions mean? Those are two questions related to theory that define the "blues in G" that Taso was referring to. Funny thing, I just learned that those questions are important when some one says "blues in X" from my guitar lesson last night. I never knew that until then. Now I can sit on stage and when someone says "blues in whatever" I'll know what they expect from me.

Slow or fast change means what chord progression to play for the blues number. From the top or on V means do we start from the beginning or from the spot where the V would be played in the normal progression. Been hearing this progression for years, as a drummer. Now I understand what is actually going on with the instruments. Theory is a wonderful thing.

the paint throwing thing's been done. look up "jackson pollack".

I'm there, Taso.

Do you want slow or fast change?

From the top or on V?

Straight or swing it?

Chicago or Kansas City?

Straight or swing it -- refers to the beat.

Chicago or Kansas City means play the normal 12 bar blues or reharmonize it to a jazz blues.

the paint throwing thing's been done. look up "jackson pollack".

No need. I'm already a part owner of one of Pollock's paintings. 8)

I always understood that "Jack The Dripper" preferred to face his canvases when he did his dripping and hurling though. Trot around on them even, as they were often fixed to the floor. But it wouldn't surprise me to learn that he indulged in the occasional bit of over the shoulder work too. :wink:

Certainly, some of the later action painters would have tried it. Not a style I'm a real big fan of though (unless it's me doing it of course, then it's a lot of fun).

Cheers, Chris

To answer your original post, you need theory for one reason (Edit: Ok, this is ONE reason ,there really are more, haha)...

When I tell another player that I want to do a blues in G, and he looks at me and has no idea what to do, it is extremly annoying. If you go play with a pianist, a sax player, any real musicians, they will say "Blues in G", and you'll be fumbling with the chords.

It's a lot easier for me to say "Blues in G", than it is for me to say, "ok, play a G, then a C, then back to a G for two measures, then a C for two measures, then a G for two measures, now a D7 for one measure, and a C for one measure, and a G for one measure, and then a D7 for another measure. Now do that all over and over again. What? You don't remember it? Oh, well what you have to do is, play a G for one measure...."

I can't tell you how irratating that is. Especially when it's with a guitarist that has been playing for a long time. New guys, yeah, I expect that. But if I think I'm playing with a musician, and find out I'm not, it's frustrating, and limiting, musically and time wise.

Think of it like this...We have a common language in the US, english (..well, a lot of us do). I could either say "I fell off a building" or I could say "After stepping off a brick structure, approximatly 500 feet tall, I proceeded to pass threw the air with a velocity of 100mph, for around 10 seconds, and I proceded to hit the ground with a force of ....." It's a lot easier if you speak the language we're all speaking, and you can just say "I fell off a building"

Ya dig?

Yes and no. I can see how that would be annoying but explaining it wouldn't bother me any. Usually if myself or my friends want a chord, we just play the chords for the other person, they copy it and we're good. Sometimes I do that even when I don't know the chord's name. It probably sounds complicated but it works for us. Either that, or we wing it.

Yeah, you can do that. I end up doing that with most of the people I play with. If they took 5 minutes out of their own time, to learn I IV V, and the progression, I wouldn't have to waste an hour of mine as they try to learn it, fumble it, and screw it up as we try to play it.

It makes it a million times easier when they actually know it. That's why I like playing with piano players and sax players, most of them know what they are doing.

It's not so bad when I think I'm playing with someone who'se just starting out, I expect to have to teach them. I teach around 6 kids actually. But when I think I'm playing with a musician, and I find out I'm not, it's irritating.

Especially with the 12 bar. Haha, it's so random isn't it? Memorizing it can take a while for some people...So I like to write it down if it's taking to long. So what do I write? G7 C7 D7, in the right order? Well that works if they know the fretboard and know where those notes are, and know what the 7th would be, etc. If they don't? I7 IV7 V7? That works if they know what I II III IV V VI VII VIII mean, and they know the scale, and what is sharp/flat. If they don't know that, I could probably make it easier by drawing them little pictures. But I gotta be honest, I don't want to draw pictures, I want to play music. This is important especially if you are running on a busy scheduel, in which you don't have much time too play. Every second you want to spend playing. It takes a lot less time to say Blues in G, then to draw out little pictures, or show, or whatever else.

G..C...G.... ...G...C...C..G...G....D?!?!?!? ..C.....G..D??!?

Anyways, just something else to think about. You won't always be playing with your friends who you've been playing with. You might audition for a band, or join the a stage band, jazz band, etc. You might have to read notation, stuff like that. You never know, it helps to be prepared for all of these things. I certainly am not, but I'm on my way, as the saying goes.

I don't think theres any need for anyone here to convince you to learn theory. You already know theory, and you're going to learn more theory as you see that you need it, as you try to make your self a better player. The blues thing came about for me as I was playing a blues in A, and realized I didn't know how to do any other blues(es). So I tried to see what the relationship was, figured out the I IV V, and there you go. I can play the blues anywhere on the neck, which is great. My favourite key went from A to G. It's also nice because with my Sax player, I can change keys to make it easier for him to play.

Well that's a nice long ramble...

Gonna go to bed now. haha.

Taso

Usually my response is "Oh yeah, prove it!" Suffice to say, I've driven most of my teachers insane.

I can imagine that. :D

I think you need a fresh angle other than "prove it" though. Nobody else but you has all that much reason to care whether you learn any theory or not. But as this is a question that you bring up here (in various forms) every few days then there seems a very good chance that you actually do want to learn more theory.

You have been pretty honest about yourself in past posts. Like saying you didn't want to be a drummer because they sat too far back, and you want to be the centre of attention and be both the lead singer and the lead guitarist. :) You may even have described yourself as a show-off, or something similar. And you also said that you find theory hard to learn. All good honest self appraisal.

So it seems at least possible that the basis of your love/hate relationship with theory is that you find it hard to learn and confusing to get into perspective, and that really pisses you off. You are in a hurry to get where you want to go, and this theory stuff not only seems to be a bit of a road block, but it's sort of bringing you down by saying "you suck at understanding me" :evil:

So on the one hand you look for ways to tell yourself you don't need it, while at the same time you still can't stop gnawing away at wanting to learn more of it. :wink:

I think the question you really should be asking is "Does anybody know a good site with some clear and easy to follow theory lessons?"

No harm in that. You are not the first or the last person to have theory irritate the heck out of you, and wish that the explanations were a bit more user friendly.

The underlying priciples behind music theory (at least the basic stuff that's handy to know) is really pretty straightforward. But there's no doubt that is IS hard to find books or sites with clear and easy to follow explanations. Much of it seems to be written by people who are already expert and who don't seem to realise how confusing their writing can be to beginners.

Common faults seem to be:

a) Leaving out basic over-views of what some musical concept are, and bashing straight on into the technical breakdown.

b) Explaining unfamiliar terms by using more unfamiliar terms.

c) Using elaborate words where simple ones would do just as well. And just generally having good knowledge but poor writing skills.

And so on.

You are obviously proud of the the theory you have learned so far (and rightly so). I've seen you talk about coming to grips with some standard notation, and even a bit of chord theory too.

Stop fighting it, and try and make friends. It's a good friend to have. 8)

Good luck,

Chris

Oh, and don't expect to have it all come together in a few days. Just try and pick a good path, and expect to continue to add to it over the years.

For instance, it might only take a few minutes to read and grasp the basics of reading standard notation - i.e learn which part of the staff each note sits on, and which note symbol mean half-note, quarter note, etc. But it can can take hours, weeks, months or even years, to learn to read it easily, accurately and fluently at playing speed, depending of course on the complexity of the piece you're playing.