Rondo Again!: SX RG1 FR Resonator

Well since this p[osts has gone in a completely different direction that I guess I will add to it...

I disagree with ALL of you when in comes to INEXPENSIVE (not CHEAP) guitars. While there are many inexpensive brands that truely are crap there are also several that are of a much higher quality. Squier & Agile are the first two to come to mind. I dare ANYONE to match Agile LP copies to Epiphone or even low-end Gibsons...by the way I have seen comaprisons done and read the reviews. Epi Elitists and the higher end Gibsons are the ONLY ones to beat Agile (I don't mean the low-end Agiles either...$350+ range like the Prestige). Squier is really making progress at making inexpensive good quality guitars that even the guitarist from the Fabulous Thunderbirds is using a Squier '51 LIVE! EVEN if you decided that the pickups are not that good and upgrade them, you still get a GREAT guitar at MUCH less than the $1000 Fenders or Gibsons.

I really personally feel that unless you are buying a high-end name-brand guitar you only care about image and the name on the headstock. I am sorry if I offend any of you but that's my opinion. The old blues players played better music with crappy old Sears guitars than most guitarists today play with high end models. A good musician does not need the most expensive gear to make great music. I dare ANYONE to argue that. This is why I support brands like Behringer and Agile. They give the little guy a chance to sound big.

Now I guess I'll sit back and prepare to be disagreed with :wink:

No one's going to disagree with you on your statement about inexpensive guitars, or the point about the old blues musicians.

but you are missing the point when it comes to the resonator. As Greg said, it's the parts inside a resonator (the cone) not to mention the bridge and a bridge set up that make the resonator sound the way it does. Those parts (currently) cost money. It truly is hard to make an inexpensive resonator that sounds like a resonator and not like a tinny guitar.

Since your initial post was about the resonator (and you freely admit to not ever playing one), the advice you're getting is actually more concerned about you getting a resonator that will play well.

I know that you're a smart shopper and that you do a lot of research before buying. If you're truly interested in a resonator, I'm sure you'll actually go and play a few before purchasing any. And I know that you'll play any that you can get your hands on. I only hope that there are some good, real resonators around because most music stores don't carry any. It may be worth a road trip to test one out.

Once you've tried different ones in different price ranges, you can let your own ear be the judge. If you don't hear any difference between a pricey one, a mid-priced one and an inexpensive model, than you can buy whatever one pleases you most. You may find the inexpensive one sounds the best to your ears and that's cool. Ultimately, it's your guitar and you are the one whom it has to satisfy.

We've all read enough posts on these forums ('cause heaven knows it one of those topics that seems to pop up every five minutes! "did I get a good deal? did I get a good deal?" "martins vs. first act" "who is esteban and why is he winking at me?" :wink: ) to know that just about everyone here believes that the personal feel of a guitar is more important than the manufacturer. We're all also smart enough to know that there are some things that are vital to the sound of any guitar and some that are purely cosmetic. When it comes to a resonator, there are different criteria than for a normal acoustic or electric guitar. It's much more of a banjo than it is a guitar, if that helps. And I'm sure you've heard banjos that sound better than other banjos.

When you're ready to make your purchase, I'm certain you'll put the same energy and effort into research and to listening and trial runs as you have when purchasing your other guitars. Wouldn't have it any other way! :wink:

Looking forward to hearing how things turn out.

Peace

Personally, I like inexpensive instruments because it gives me room to tweak. There's not much to do on my 70s LP or Strat (though I did mod the Strat with an extra 3-position selector and Hotstacks) and the only thing I did on my AE185 was to rotate the pup selector a tiny bit so it was a little more like a Strat angle, but the others have all gotten 'the treatment' to some extent. My big project recently was to install a nut and bridge on the old nameless 70s mando I finally had shipped from my home town and though it was just with files and sandpaper, it turned out pretty playable.

By the way Ricochet, on righty instruments with a movable bridge, like my mando, recently, it's not simply a matter of rotating the thing 180 degrees. Like on the mando, which I got a cheap $9 righty bridge for from Elderly - the compensated one - if you look at it, it's a sorta 'stairstep' going up from left to right; like up-up-back-up shape. If I rotate it, it's like the letter 'Z' - it still comes out mostly a 'Z' even if you turn it around. Ideally, the compensated points would have to be mirror-imaged, so it would be like the letter 'S'.

But on the reso, since compensation is mostly for 'fretted vs unfretted' string length and I'd only be using it with a slide, even the reversed compensation becomes unimportant. I think that's why most steels and those kinds of guitars have a straight-across saddle/bridge.

That said everyone else, I have one Rondomusic instrument, the B405 (I think) - the five string bass they offered a couple years back, and it came to me with an absolutely straight neck and workable pups. I shielded, but that was about it. It's been on quite a few of my recordings, and...I've found that on recordings, depending on the miking and placement and room and stuff, it becomes less important - at least to my ear - what the brand or quality of the instrument really is. A perfect example is the 12-string Epiphone, another not-so-expensive instrument. I don't use it too much as a solo instrument, and so it normally gets pushed back in the mix anyhow, just to give 'the sound' of a 12 playing back there. If it were a Martin, you'd still hardly hear the difference in my estimation.

Sitting in my living room playing, I'd hear a big difference. Playing live I probably wouldn't due to the most-times borderline sound of some of the PA systems we play through. Plus, I wouldn't want to take a really nice, expensive instrument on gigs - I'd rather have a beater or a semi-beater so I wouldn't worry about theft or dings.

For me at least, an instrument must have a tweakability or utilitarian appeal. I'm not a collector or a vintage instrument guy. If I need a certain sound, I'll try and get something inexpensive to fill that spectrum. If, in the case of the reso referred to, since I have some experience with Kurt and Rondo music, I'd snag the reso in a second if I needed that sound. Beats trying to cop it with a nyon string classical guitar and a glass slide - which I've tried :)

Funny though, talking about inexpensive gear: that lefty Rondo acoustic bass would be the one I'd get next; for just sitting around unplugged, writing or practicing with my wife and her uke. It wouldn't be my stage instrument (another inexpensive 'knock off' - Turser Beatle, covers that) so I wouldn't want to be spending $400-$700 on something I'd use twice a month.

I guess I just never got bitten by the great, beautiful, expensive instrument thing because I guess I never like having an instrument that was 'better' than I was, lol! I sit with an instrument in my hands and think 'what can I do with you?' and if I hear it somewhere in some piece or recording, then fine. Cool inlays, perfectly done fret edges and setup don't really matter.

But then, that's just me. :)

Oh by the way, Mike, when you get the thing come back and let us know how it is. I'm into a bit of slide now; that reso might be in my future too!

I like inexpensive instruments and own a pretty good variety of low-end to upper mid-level instruments. My point is simple. Go listen to cheapo resos compared to reasonably well made (not very expensive) resos. They do not generally sound "a little worse." They sound terrible. And most newbies who haven't really heard what a decent reso sounds like won't know there is something wrong -- fixable or not. They may just keep trying to play and think their skills suck. These days there are many $150 -$200 electric basses and electric guitars that are of fine quality -- not only for beginners but some even adequate for the rigors of playing out. Carefully chosen, a nice sounding acoustic guitar that someone will keep around even after moving on to better instruments is maybe about $225 to $250 new. Resonator guitars are in a different class in terms of quantities made, type of construction, and general learning curve in an Asian manufacturing process. Resos are not (yet) achieving comparible quality to other types of guitars in lower price brackets.

My point was that conversation was switching to cheap guitars. I respect your opinion on the resno guitars since I don't have experience with them. But to say that you should have one good (ie. expensive name brand) guitar instead of 2-3 inexpensive guitars is all a matter of taste. Like David said, playability is the most IMPORTANT thing. Keep in mind thogh that Rondo has a great return policy so even if you don't like the resno it is very easily returned.

I like inexpensive instruments and own a pretty good variety of low-end to upper mid-level instruments. My point is simple. Go listen to cheapo resos compared to reasonably well made (not very expensive) resos. They do not generally sound "a little worse." They sound terrible. And most newbies who haven't really heard what a decent reso sounds like won't know there is something wrong -- fixable or not. They may just keep trying to play and think their skills suck. These days there are many $150 -$200 electric basses and electric guitars that are of fine quality -- not only for beginners but some even adequate for the rigors of playing out. Carefully chosen, a nice sounding acoustic guitar that someone will keep around even after moving on to better instruments is maybe about $225 to $250 new. Resonator guitars are in a different class in terms of quantities made, type of construction, and general learning curve in an Asian manufacturing process. Resos are not (yet) achieving comparible quality to other types of guitars in lower price brackets.

Yah, I hear ya: with reso's it's all about the cone and there's really no way around it. There's way more mechanical stuff involved with a reso that's just not there with a standard flat top.

DemoEtc, the usual resonator saddles aren't compensated. Rotating the cone 180 degrees does reverse the strings properly. And intonating one is an approximation, achieved by rotating the whole cone and (where possible) sliding it up or down a bit on the soundwell.

Hey thanks Ricochet! I've never actually had one in my hands. I would've thought the cone was like it was marked or notched or something - it would only fit turned a certain way and then drop in. But you can actually turn it to any angle? That's pretty cool.

Hey I've also heard some good things about Paul Beard and this kit or setup service or something that he has. I think (?) he makes cones for lots of different instruments and it's like $200 for him to set one up with the new cone and nut and everything. That might be an interesting thing.

Except now that I look at the SX reso again, it's a round-neck with what looks like a standard guitar nut - which I assume is for playing bottlneck and ragtime/fingerpicking stuff. For me, I'm just so into steel playing now, I guess I'd have to make a dobro type nut and have the while thing setup for dobro-only slide playing.

But that's interesting about the cones, once again. Is that how they fine tune them?

The other thing is though, I still have to disagree slightly about the saddle angle (again, not that it matters 'that' much if one doesn't intend to fret the strings) - because, looking at a righty guitar face-on, the saddle will be somewhat like ' / ' - bass strings on the left, high strings on the right. Now if I take that / and turn it 180, I still come up with /. See what I'm getting at. It's a small point, but it's something I've had to futz with all my life, really. It's a lot more noticeable with fretted guitars or electrics (especially with the Gibson type narrow Tune-o-matics, because they're already angled and there's not enough adjustment travel) but not so much on slides and steels. My lap has a straight-across bridge/saddle.

But instead of ' / ', it would have to be, for a lefty, ' '

Again though, it's a small point on a dobro type instrument.

Thanks again for the info on reso's. :)

My point was that conversation was switching to cheap guitars. I respect your opinion on the resno guitars since I don't have experience with them. But to say that you should have one good (ie. expensive name brand) guitar instead of 2-3 inexpensive guitars is all a matter of taste. Like David said, playability is the most IMPORTANT thing. Keep in mind thogh that Rondo has a great return policy so even if you don't like the resno it is very easily returned.

What you buy is up to you. But why spend anything on a questonable guitar? If you can't afford to buy a decent starter resonator -- which will probably cost more than $150 new -- then don't bother, as your money is better spent elsewhere. After all, you don't need a reso to learn to play slide -- especially blues style bottleneck playing. I use my 30-year-old lam-top Alvarez for acoustic slide. It's the least espensive guitar I own, and its Fishman Rare Earth soundhole is worth way more than the guitar.

BTW, playability is not the necessarily the most important aspect of an instrument. Some truly wonderful instruments are not easy players. As you get better, you will find that your standards for playability broaden, and sound and style will become increasingly important.

guitars are generally finicky creatures. in reality, their overall quality is effected by dozens of factors. i t hink with resonators and other "non-traditional" stringed instruments this is doubly so.

with that said, i really don't believe that lower-budgeted instruments are of sufficient quality. if you were to get a cheap resonator, you are basically cheating yourself out of how a solid reso should sound. i can make a guitar out of a box, and call it a guitar, but is the sound in any way comparable to a regular guitar? nope. i think there is a definite basement point where quality is compromised significantly, and that resonator you are showing us hits that basement. i've played a few resos from Fender (which arent *too* bad, but hardly great) to some upper-echelon models (don't remember the brand names though). there is a huge discrepancy between budget models and better quality models. huge. in regular guitars, this discrepancy also exists, but the gap is smaller, especially with electrics.

mike i understand that you stand by Rondo guitars for their prices and quality, and that's great. but it seems that you are limiting yourself to these kinds of guitars. if you are serious about a resonator, you really should do yourself a favor and most likely increase your budget. you'll have a much better resonator experience.

mike i understand that you stand by Rondo guitars for their prices and quality, and that's great. but it seems that you are limiting yourself to these kinds of guitars. if you are serious about a resonator, you really should do yourself a favor and most likely increase your budget. you'll have a much better resonator experience.

I don't understand what you mean by "These kinds of guitars"? I have played Fenders, ibsons, Epi's, Martins, Taylors...quite honestly the amount of EXTRA money they cost does NOT validate the so called "better guitar" that they are. I have played good Fenders & bad Fenders (same is true for ALL brands). Like David said..PLAYABLITY is the FINAL factor in deciding what guitar to buy. I have anly played ONE Agile but if this is how "These kinds of guitars" play then give me one of "THESE" guitars ANYDAY. I totally REFUSE to pay for a name. My only "exception" is a Fender Tele. This is just something I have wanted for a long time. Other thasn that..who cares what name is on the headstock. I have to be honest here...I'll bet a weeks pay that if you take a GOOD guitarist and have them play a Gibson and an Agile LP that 99.9% of the listeners will not know the difference. As long as both are playable and can be used time and time again than the less money spent the better. As a matter of fact I have read that time and time again Gibson's quality control is out the window. The extra $600-$700 for their guitars does not mean that they are that much better.

I know I have been beating a dead horse here but I TRUELY believe that we need to bring back the mentality of the old Blues Player. Since i have started practicing and really listening to blues music I believe that the heart and soul of the music is NOT the gear but the musician. If you can hammer out your favorite licks on anything with 6 strings who really cares what name is on the headstock. These musicians could out play ANY guitarist today and I'll bet Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, Keith Richards, or any other guitar "legand" would agree with me. I say this because they had cheap poorly made gear that could just SING.

Rant is over...steps off soap box and chugs a brew! :wink:

when i said "these kinds of guitars" i was referring to budget models. you can believe what you want, but there is no way in my mind that a budget guitar is in anyway comparable to a Fender or a Gibson. Whether or not the value of a Gibson is appropriate for it's build quality is a completely different issue. yes, Agiles etc are great deals and the build quality to price ratio is excellent. but the truth is that even if Gibson are outrageously overpriced, and even if they are suffering from QC issues, their average build quality is superior to the Agiles. there is no way around that.

if you liked to ski, would you just stick to the simple bunny hills and easier courses? or would you want to move on to harder courses and ultimately black diamonds? budget guitars are usually beginners, like the bunny hill. they're fun and all, but once you get to appreciate those more advanced hills, the beginner hill/guitar just seems almost obsolete.

all i'm trying to say here is don't limit yourself to budget guitars, even if it is on principle. yes, it's great to get back to the working man blues mentality, but better guitars offer a far better experience and it's worth checking out. if you spend some significant QT with any number of Gibsons, Guilds, Fenders, Martins, Taylors, Breedloves, PRS, Ibanez *insert any major guitar company here*, and you can honestly say that Agiles and Epiphones are better guitars, then more power to you. but i think you'll find that's not the case. once you are familiar with what makes a good resonator a GOOD resonator, then you will be able to see shortcomings in the budget lines. since i bought my martin, i find it hard to play the cheap Arias and bottom-barrel Fender acoustic guitars my school has in our music room. when i started, i thought these would have been nice guitars, but now that i have played better and my skills have increased, i know that they are severely lacking in quality and therefore tone. your agile is a great guitar, but i doubt it has the tried and true LP tone that you can get from a good quality Gibson LP.

don't limit yourself...check everything out. go try the agile. go try a gibson. go try a fender reso. go try a beard reso. try any reso you can get your hands on. but don't go for the Agile (or SX or whatever it is) just because it's an agile. that's way too narrowminded. principles are a great thing, but being stubborn about it can drag you down a bit.

and i dont mean to offend you. your contributions here are invaluable and i like to read what you have to say. i just want you to be aware that there is more out there that warrants looking at.

Like I mentioned before..when it comes to resnos I'll have to take everyone's word for it. When it comes to regular guitars I'll stay on the "bunny Hills". They haven't dome me wrong yet so why change now.

Don't worry..no offense taken. I like a good debate and I know this topic comes up ALL the time and it probably should be in it's own thread. As a matter of fasct it should be a sticky! :wink:

well just as long as you're happy on the bunny hills, that's what matters.

i guess right now i'm on the intermediate hills.

one day, i will be on the black diamonds when i rock the house with my sweet arctic white american strat and/or tele. or maybe just my own house....

i guess right now i'm on the intermediate hills.

one day, i will be on the black diamonds when i rock the house with my sweet arctic white american strat and/or tele. or maybe just my own house....

Nah, try a guitar by one of the custom makers: Suhr, Sadowsky or Pensa. Everyone I've talked to who has tried them says they play better than any Fender. :D