Seeking amp enlightenment!

What it all comes down to is SS is quickly closing the gap, if not allready succesfull in most circumstances, in the sound quality arena... Tube amps are a dying breed. Production cost, weight and other factors will eventually remove tube amps from the picture all together. In another 20 or so years most of us will be arguing our vintage SS sound against whatever technology comes up next. Guitar players are notorious for clinging to old ideas... Time to move on :)

What it all comes down to is SS is quickly closing the gap, if not allready succesfull in most circumstances, in the sound quality arena... Tube amps are a dying breed. Production cost, weight and other factors will eventually remove tube amps from the picture all together. In another 20 or so years most of us will be arguing our vintage SS sound against whatever technology comes up next. Guitar players are notorious for clinging to old ideas... Time to move on :)

People were saying this 20 years ago. Then they started to understand the fundamental qualities of tube amps that make them so desirable. Most guitar designs could be considered hoplessly outdated, but they're attractive and functional, so they stay. Same with tubes. They're a hopelessly antiquated technology that is amazingly out of place in our microprocessor world, but they they stay because they produce the best possible sound that we currently know of.

Alternate amp designs are getting better, but have you noticed what the most recent developments in amp technology has been? Hybrid amps: Solid states that incorporate tubes to use their unique qualities, and Modeling amps: amps that imitate older tube amps.

My hope is that that start going back and improving basic tube designs, creating tube amps that still sound as good and function in bascially the same way, but address the tube amp's known weaknesses: weight and cost.

Fender has re-designed their modeling lines, and they now are a hybrid between classic tube design and digital pre-amplification. Vox was the first to do this, with their Valvetronix circuitry combining a modeling pre-amp with a 1W/1tube poweramp section. Line6 and Yamaha continue to do it totally tubeless. Haven't heared the Fenders, but the Vox, IMHO, outperforms the Line6 amps in the same pricerange (Spider, Flextone). Is it the tube section? Maybe, no idea. And to be honest, who cares?

In the end I don;t really care what inside is producing the sound, but I do know we have the sound quality of tubes and the versatility of modeling, and it is just a matter of time before one of the above companies, or a totally new one maybe, mixes the advantages together.

As for SS amps making tubes obsolete: I know there are some old tube amps which even have a SS switch+cicuitry inside, because at the time people seriously thought those transistor things were soon going to kick the tube amps out of the market. :lol:

There's always been a constant tug-of-war between the two. The big question is why do they sound different? It comes to the characteristic's of electron flow through tubes versus the flow of electrons through a transistor. Some folks like myself grew up on tube amps and over time have learned how to get great tone and sound from them. I use both types, the tube amps running at their saturation point and if need be they can then be amplified using solid state amps, so as not to color the sound and tone thats already there.

It really comes down to a personal choice. I think once you've played on a tube amp running at its saturation point you won't look back.

Joe

Joe: How far off would I be if I would state that your positive experiences in the past has led to a dogmatic attitude regarding any modern amplification technology? No offense, and if you like what you have you should use what you like ofcourse, but wouldn't you agree you are of the clapton-type I described above; someone who has been around long enough to collect whatever they want, and as such lose interest in alternative ways to reach the same goal, since the goal is already reached?

Not everyone who likes tubes is a geezer Arjen. Though I can recognize the upside of modeling, I vastly prefer the sound of genuine tube sound, and I'm only 22.
once you've played on a tube amp running at its saturation point you won't look back.

Yessir, that spongy saturation is something I haven't yet heard duplicated by any modeler, and that's what makes tube amps so great.

This board is great. It is awesome to read through a well thought out discussion on this topic. On other boards I have followed in the past, something like this (tube vs. SS) would have turned into a completely useless flame war. Thank you all for keeping these forum pages great!

BTW, I just bought a Line 6 - Spider II and can't wait to some quality one on one time with it. One of my biggest reason for a SS amp was the performance at lower volumes. The wife and kid really appreciate not getting woken up at 2am :-)

The modelling amps are great for those that want to play. For anyone seriously wanting to find "their" sound, the tube amp is the way IMHO. Any guitarist worth his salt will want "his" sound, something that is unique to him - something by which he can be identified. You won't get that by farting around with 20 different amp and as many cabinet emulations - you'll spend your life playing around.

I know others have different opinions, but that's mine.

In my band, I play through a Marshall Mode 4 halfstack (which is a hybrid) and the other guitarist has a Peavey 5150 halfstack (tube). He uses various effects and I usually go dry. However, I have an effects processor that has a lot of modeling, that I occasionally use. We both use Gibson Les Pauls.

Honestly, I think neither really sounds better than the other. Noone has ever said his tone is way better or mine is way better. The tone mostly comes from the player anyway. We can change rigs and still sound like we did before. Tube vs. solidstate vs. hybrid - can go on forever.

They are simply different, not better or worse.

P.S. If I had to cast a vote, I'd pick Hybrids (tubes in the preamp, SS postamp) as the best all around choice. They sound fantastic at any volume. I also have a 1992 model 40 watt Valvestate Marshall that I think sounds better than any amp.

Any guitarist worth his salt will want "his" sound, something that is unique to him - something by which he can be identified.

Any guitarist worth his salt doesn't need a specific device to get his sound. Jimi Hendrix is unplugged still obviously Hendrix, Page, Petrucci, Gilmour and many others have more gear that all of us (minus Joe ;) ) together, and they are no lousy or unimportant players. Sidenote: do you *really* believe yet another JCM800 or Twin Reverb is going to make you sound unique? Or do you agree it is 99% technique that sets up apart?

Heck, Joe himself probably has more equipment then our local music store. The only difference between what Joe wants and what Line6 wants is Joe has his tools in multiple devices, while modeling tries to bring it all close together. I'd even dare to say that I would be able to get a better tone out of modeling amps at this very moment, while Joe is much more able to get a good tone from a chain of different devices. Why? Because he rarely plays with digital stuff, and I don't have access to the vast ammount of stuff he has collected. So I let him play with his stuff, and I expect anyone not to go into snob-mode when people prefer modeling.

Is any of us wrong? Don't think so. However, it *is* wrong to assume there is nothing but tubes. if you check both out, and prefere one over the other, fine. If you immediately discard any of your options you're just hurting yourself.

As for pro vs amateur, 'uniqueness' and whatnot, whatever floats your boat... :roll:

Any guitarist worth his salt doesn't need a specific device to get his sound.

Sure, it's just that some of those devices bring out more of the nuances of people's playing, and people play different on different equipment.

I don't think I'm alone when I say I play totaly different on an LP than I do on a Strat. I sound very different on the two. Same for amps, I sound very different on different amps.

Ultimately, amps are musical instruments, they color your sound and become a vital part of your musical personality, just like your guitar.

I would no sooner buy a modeling amp than I would buy a modeling guitar.

Hmm....

I've played through a bunch (though admittedly not every last one) of solid states, a few "modelling" amps, and tube amps.

Having my druthers, I'd rather be playing through a tube amp anytime. The main difference, as best I can explain it, is that SS circuitry when "overdriven" sounds just like that... overdriven. Tubes sound "saturated" and smoother.

Put another way, I've never been "blown away" by a solid state amp. I have, however, played tube amps that just put a grin on my face.

Tube amps also tend to be much more dynamic in response to pick attack.

The downsides? Price, and apparently more and more limited amounts to choose from. If you're in a situation where you need a 1/2 dozen amp types to choose from for your playing, SS is probably the way you want to go.

Wow, I'm super late getting in on this one.

Arjen as always makes terrific points. I remember some time back he posted an article where people listened to solid-state and tube amps and were asked to identify them. And the truth is, without looking, no one could tell the difference EXCEPT..........

When playing the Blues.

Now, think about that. Why could people identify tube amps from solid state amps when playing the Blues??

I think I know why.

Because with just about every other form of music played today, people use effects. Even Country. And when you introduce digital effects then yeah, you can't tell the difference.

But most Blues players just crank up a tube amp and play at saturation. Usually about the only effect they use is reverb. I know there are many exceptions, but basically Blues players play clean.

And I agree with Joe. When you crank a tube amp up good and loud there is a difference. I have played on many solid state amps cranked up. None of them sound like my tube amp. A tube amp is WAY warmer and FULLER sounding. It just has a presence you can feel in your body. Solid states tend to get harsh when cranked. I have never been able to find a solid state amp that I really liked the tone when cranked. Really.

I use a Danelectro Fab Tone distortion pedal with my HRD. It's not the best pedal in the world, but it's pretty good. But as soon as I kick it in, my HRD does not quite sound like a tube amp anymore. But my amp will not get the over the top modern distortion without a pedal. Maybe I need a Peavey 5150 :D . They go over the top.

But effects color the tone. Even the best and most expensive ones.

Arjen, I like Line 6 amps. I've heard them many times at live gigs. And they are a good sounding amp. But they always sound artificial to me. They sound solid state. I have a good friend who plays a 50W Marshall head cranked up through a 4 X 12. Line 6 could only dream of sounding like that. They can't.

I have been interested in the solid state modeling amps. It is fantastic to have the sounds of so many great amps. And they get really close. Most people would not be able to tell the difference. They are lighter, cheaper, and most people say more dependable (I disagree with that one, I have had much more trouble with solid state amps).

Yes, with a tube amp you pretty much get one sound. But if it is an awesome sound that fits your needs it's the way to go. But if you want a wide variety of sounds, then go with a good solid state modeling amp.

Anyway, no one should argue over this. Both amps are good. I really might buy me one of these new modeling amps. The versatility is what appeals to me. But for tone, give me a tube amp.

I don't think I'm alone when I say I play totaly different on an LP than I do on a Strat. I sound very different on the two. Same for amps, I sound very different on different amps.

Now THIS is a very valid point. I know many people who just play different when playing with either a Yamaha or Fender stratocaster. Yamaha makes some excellent instruments, so that's not the point. The bare truth is that with music, just like with any other artform, feeling and emotion are vital. And if you feel happier with a tube amp, not even the 'perfect' digital amp would be fitting.

Wes: good points. It is indeed that area of 'somewhat overdriven' sounds that are hardest to model. Totally clean and distorted tones are pretty much nailed already, but it is this 'SRV playing Little Wing' sound that is really tube at its best. And this year modeling took another grand step towards sounding like this, although Vox did cheat by putting a tube circuitry in. I am really dying to try those new Fender modeling/tube hybrid amps!

And yeah, putting a tone-sucker like the Boss GT6 (which is for the rest a great unit!) before your tube amp is really silly. But then again, I've heared people rave about the 'tube' sound of the JCM900, go figure... :roll:

As for reliability: SS had the potential to be much more bump-proof. Unfortunately, if you let those amps be made by underpayed uninterested people in Indonesia then the quality of your '10W Squier amp with gain boost knob for vintage sound' is not going to outlive your handmade Fender tube amp. :lol:

So whats the feature going to be? Full digital with perfect sound? Modeling fading away and tubes remaining king of the hill? Or are Vox, Fender and Korg correct when they try to create the perfect combo of digital and tube circuitry? Noone knows for sure, but seeing how far they've come in how little time, I won't be surprised to see a one-amp-fits-all product before 2080. :wink:

And hey, whats there to lose?