Sweeping on Guitar

Sometimes, when I'm learning something that's intended to be played fast, I get a little lost in the 'speeding it up' phase of learning. Sometimes (and it may just be me) I find it easier to learn it slowly as thoroughly as possible, slowly speed up as much as I can and then when I hit a plateau just go straight for just a little under full speed, instead of trying to ease my way up through the 'bump'.

It's kind of like tremolo picking - if you do it slowly you're thinking 'pick, pick, pick, pick, pick' etc, but when you do it fast you don't think about each note, you just think 'start', 'keep going' and 'stop', if you see what I mean. The bump is the transition from thinking about each note put together to thinking about the effect as a single entity that you turn on and off.

Or riding a bike - you can't learn it too slowly, as the necessary feedback that you need to train isn't there at too slow a speed. You can be falling right and steer right to correct it, but you'll still fall off if you're not going fast enough. When you're going at the right speed, you don't have time to think "I'm falling right, I'd better steer right", you just do it instinctively and this is how you learn it.

Anyhooo, I'll stop rambling now. It ain't easy trying to explain something that works for you if you're not certain how it works for you. :wink:

So I back off a notch or two for a while. I don't stop, but I just ease off on making it the big thing I'm trying to beat right now. I slow down just a bit for while, as you say, but still do some each day. Then, later, when I go back to concentrating harder on it again, the "old noggin" seems to have done a lot of that soaking up you talk about.
That'll be the sleep, mostly. More than half* of what you learn during the day is made sense of and cemented properly in memory during REM sleep.

I know that in theory, therefore, that staying up late to squeeze in more guitar is a false economy, but I don't seem to be able to accept that in practice. :roll:

*If I recall correctly. Lots anyway :)

That'll be the sleep, mostly. More than half* of what you learn during the day is made sense of and cemented properly in memory during REM sleep.

Absolutely. I've been trying to tell my wife how much faster I'd learn if I could just sleep through some of the day too..... :wink:

Well, maybe not.... but it certainly seems to pay off when I get the balance right between how much practice and progress I attempt per day, before the brain needs a kip to cope with it all.

I'm still trying to learn just how long I can hammer away at one task (musical or otherwise) before I reach saturation point and need to switch to a different task. But at least I'm getting slightly better at recognising when to take a break. :roll:

Absolutely. I've been trying to tell my wife how much faster I'd learn if I could just sleep through some of the day too..... :wink:
Wives are easy to convince, it's employers that are tricky :cry:

I totally agree with that Misanthrope.

Over the past few days I have been getting better at it. I took yesterday off entirely from guitar (first time in months!!!!) just to try and let it sink in a little bit better. I'll continue to practice it for a few hours today too, it's a great technique when used sparingly I think.

I'll be sure to post some Jason Becker stuff in a few months when I am capable!!

'Sparingly' is the definately the key to sweeping - I find it really quite annoying when it makes up most of the song. *cough* Yngwie *cough* :wink:

in it's niche a song that is all sweeps can be quite enjoyable to me.

Or riding a bike - you can't learn it too slowly, as the necessary feedback that you need to train isn't there at too slow a speed. You can be falling right and steer right to correct it, but you'll still fall off if you're not going fast enough. When you're going at the right speed, you don't have time to think "I'm falling right, I'd better steer right", you just do it instinctively and this is how you learn it.

I think that was a perfect analogy. Over the years, I've seen many players asking about sweep picking, and, almost every time, they are given the advice to just start slowly and work up to speed. Well, doing it slowly may help the fretting hand, but not the picking hand. I think, like riding the bike, it cannot really be done slowly; it's better to go at it with reckless abandon, then learn to clean it up.

Something that may (or may not) help... I didn't get a chance to look at any of the tutorials that were posted here; but, there are, of course, multiple ways to finger the same sweeping arpeggio. In most tutorials, an Aminor arpeggio would be fingered as:
------------------12-15-12-------------------------
---------------13-----------13----------------------
------------14-----------------14-------------------
---------14-----------------------14----------------
-12-15------------------------------15-12----------
------------------------------------------------------

Personally, I will play:
------------8-12-15-12------------------------------
---------10-------------13---------------------------
-------9-------------------14-9----------------------
----10--------------------------10-------------------
-12--------------------------------12----------------
-------------------------------------------------------

Or, sometimes I will tap the A on the 15th fret with my picking hand and just go back down the same pattern:
------------8-12-15(t)-12-8-------------------------
---------10------------------10-----------------------
-------9------------------------9---------------------
----10------------------------- -10-------------------
-12--------------------------------12----------------
-------------------------------------------------------

They are all different fingerings to play the exact same thing, right? My point is... in most cases, it's the player's fretting hand that can't keep up with the sweep. I mean, anybody can sweep across the strings with the pick when all the strings are open, right? So, usually the problem is not with the picking hand (unless you try start out slowly and are thinking "pick-pick-pick-pick"). Just because the notes are arranged a certain way in a tutorial doesn't mean you cannot rearrange them to fit what is comfortable to you. The key is to arrange the notes in a way that you can finger all the notes in one fluid sequence.

Or riding a bike - you can't learn it too slowly, as the necessary feedback that you need to train isn't there at too slow a speed. You can be falling right and steer right to correct it, but you'll still fall off if you're not going fast enough. When you're going at the right speed, you don't have time to think "I'm falling right, I'd better steer right", you just do it instinctively and this is how you learn it.

I like the analogy. :) But I see it in a slightly different light. Riding a bike used to involve getting hurt quite a few times before you mastered it, because there wasn't much in the way of alternatives.

But now a lot of kids learn using an extra set of 'trainer wheels' that stop them falling off. So now you can learn to ride slowly, and it works just fine when you do it that way too.

I have a disabled son who found it impossible to even start learning to ride a bike because he couldn't handle the processing of all the different movements and and adjustments involved. So we broke it down into even smaller steps. I put the bike up on blocks so that we could work on pedalling independently, and used other strategies to work on on different elements. Then we slowly put it all together.

I do admit that the first time he rode independently he went straight through a flywire door.. :D ... but that's because he did it when I wasn't there supervising, and my wife was supposed to be watching him. :P

But the principle worked just fine. Breaking stuff down into ever smaller and easier steps is a well established and highly efficient technique that has proved very effective across many teaching areas. The only real BUT.... is that is doesn't suit everybody, and some people will always just prefer to use the 'reckless abandon' approach that xuelong talks about (I'm quite fond of it myself in a lot of instances.. :wink: )

I do agree though that slower doesn't always mean easier.

It's often harder to play slowly and evenly than it is to play at medium pace. So I'd say start at whatever seems to be a comfortable speed (which won't be the same speed for all of us) and then work on getting both slower and faster. The control you learn should pay off in other areas too.

Might even have to start taking notice of my own advice too.... :oops:

Cheers,

Chris

They are all different fingerings to play the exact same thing, right? My point is... in most cases, it's the player's fretting hand that can't keep up with the sweep. I mean, anybody can sweep across the strings with the pick when all the strings are open, right? So, usually the problem is not with the picking hand (unless you try start out slowly and are thinking "pick-pick-pick-pick"). Just because the notes are arranged a certain way in a tutorial doesn't mean you cannot rearrange them to fit what is comfortable to you. The key is to arrange the notes in a way that you can finger all the notes in one fluid sequence.

I am just the opposite, my fretting hand is much quicker than my picking hand. I started back in the 70's when Rock was heavily Blues influenced. You played fast by using hammer-ons and pull-offs. I really do not need to pick much to play at all, I can pretty much play by my fretting hand alone. And I think this is common with guitar players from that time before the real "shredders" started coming along in the 80's. So for a long time now I have worked on picking faster and picking every note. Not that I like this style, I will always prefer Blues based guitar over Classical influenced guitar. But that's just me. Still, there are times when I would like to play a super fast run, or even an occasional sweep. So I practice these things all the time and have improved quite a bit.

For me, I think you have to be patient. Strive for speed, but don't try to play faster than you can, you are practicing to be sloppy. I have heard many players that are fast, and very few really play cleanly.

I find if you get the technique down, speed naturally comes. I can play runs and sweeps much faster now than months ago without trying. You just get the feel.

For me, I think you have to be patient. Strive for speed, but don't try to play faster than you can, you are practicing to be sloppy. I have heard many players that are fast, and very few really play cleanly.

I find if you get the technique down, speed naturally comes. I can play runs and sweeps much faster now than months ago without trying. You just get the feel.
Yeah I agree completely. I read an article and Dave Mustaine was like a lot of people play fast, but if you slow down their recordings they are demonstrating almost no rhythmic sensibilities, they'll attack the sweeps trying to play 10000 notes a minute, but the note groupings float over the underlying beat and the overall effect is really really sloppy runs that sound like absolute crap when slowed down.

In fact, most of these players can't even play 16ths at like 60bpm cleanly, they will inevitably screw it up because they just tremolo pick everything (poorly) and execute sloppy sweeps that have no rhythm. As Paul Gilbert says, it's always easier to speed up one you have the basics down. I think I agree with Wes here that starting the arpeggios at a managable speed and working up is probably wiser. That's just me however, but it seems like most of the players I admire (Gilbert, Lane, Mustaine etc) have all said the same thing, and the ones who can lock onto a beat are the ones that can play the note groupings equally well slow as they can fast.

I mean, anybody can sweep across the strings with the pick when all the strings are open, right? So, usually the problem is not with the picking hand (unless you try start out slowly and are thinking "pick-pick-pick-pick"). Just because the notes are arranged a certain way in a tutorial doesn't mean you cannot rearrange them to fit what is comfortable to you. The key is to arrange the notes in a way that you can finger all the notes in one fluid sequence.
I don't really agree with this either. A lot of players might execute a 3 string sweep poorly, always getting bleeding overtones when they hit the notes too slow or too fast, or they may just be flagerantly hitting open strings and hoping the distortion and the speed covers up the sloppiness of the run. Maybe it is just me, but it took me a LOT of practice just to get basic three string arpeggios sounding good and clean with no overtones. Sweep picking is really and exercise of coordination, but the biggest hangup for me, and for most players (in my opinion) is locking the picking hand in with the fretting hand. If the fretting hand can't finger the arpeggio, you really have no business trying to learn to sweep it in my opinion.

eh? I didn't write that :)

If the fretting hand can't finger the arpeggio, you really have no business trying to learn to sweep it in my opinion.

I definitely agree with that statement. That was my whole point about rearranging arpeggio shapes (and scales and chords for that matter) that are seen in tutorials and other lessons. You may have trouble fingering a particular "shape"; but, by choosing different locations of the same notes, you may find a shape that is much for comfortable.

I understand what you guys are saying though. I guess I've been playing too long and forget about the coordination problems of the fretting and picking hands. After playing for awhile, the picking hand automatically picks the right string no matter what. Over the summer, I gave a co-worker's son guitar lessons (after several months of his relentless begging). The kid (about 12 or 13) never played guitar before. Half the time, I was thinking "Why can't you pick the stupid note!! :evil: " hahahaha It was nightmare. Turned out those were lessons for him and me! :oops:

I don't really agree with this either. A lot of players might execute a 3 string sweep poorly, always getting bleeding overtones when they hit the notes too slow or too fast, or they may just be flagerantly hitting open strings and hoping the distortion and the speed covers up the sloppiness of the run. Maybe it is just me, but it took me a LOT of practice just to get basic three string arpeggios sounding good and clean with no overtones. Sweep picking is really and exercise of coordination, but the biggest hangup for me, and for most players (in my opinion) is locking the picking hand in with the fretting hand. If the fretting hand can't finger the arpeggio, you really have no business trying to learn to sweep it in my opinion.

One thing I always hate about these Metal speed technique videos is the hyper distortion with delay tone they always use. Guess I'm not a Metal guy, but I absolutely hate the tone most Metal players use. Sounds like a kazoo. :roll:

I think using distortions when learning speed mechanics is harmful to learning the technique well. Distortion covers up lots of mistakes and makes a player sound better than they really are.

I always use a clean tone without effects when trying to learn any new speed technique. Then you can actually hear what you are playing. Once you get the technique down, then you can play with distortions and delay.

But not that horrible Metal tone, yeeechhhh!

By the way, been practicing that C major arpeggio lesson. In just a few days I have been able to play that arpeggio from about 70 BPM up to 90 BPM. Not fast at all, but I'm playing it cleanly.

Cool advice Wes.

Are you talking about the Paul Gilbert video?