The Chicken or the Egg...

but don't ask me to play and sing Last Chance Texaco by Rickie Lee Jones.

Don't worry, I can't sing that song either. Of course, the fact I've never heard it might be my problem. :)

Dude...this is a MUST LISTEN to song. I am biased of course...I absolutely love RLJ.

I personally dislike rhythm that is tied tightly with the vocal. the rhythm should be the foundation of the song. it sets up the groove creating headroom for the vocals. the vocal then can 'play' with the groove. extending or hanging back; a vocal adds feeling and interest.
it takes practice to be able to play rhythm and sing . if you can stand it give a listen to the recent song I posted, Big train. my guitar is loose and rhythmic, changing strums in the vocal phrasing and chord changes.

dog- So far, my favs of your songs are I Smoke His Brand and Slide Awhile Too. The Dylan birthday tune is cool too!

thanks. I Smoke... is my original. anyway....that is my all time fav album by RLJ.

I personally dislike rhythm that is tied tightly with the vocal. the rhythm should be the foundation of the song. it sets up the groove creating headroom for the vocals. the vocal then can 'play' with the groove. extending or hanging back; a vocal adds feeling and interest.
it takes practice to be able to play rhythm and sing . if you can stand it give a listen to the recent song I posted, Big train. my guitar is loose and rhythmic, changing strums in the vocal phrasing and chord changes.

Hey DB, I've been trying to understand your thoughts when you say "I personally dislike rhythm that is tied tightly with the vocal.". Do you have an examples in mind? You talking about some of those AM Gold things where there are 14 chord changes per verse line?

Hi Roy,

My feeling is that the tied rhythm/vocal thing applies across the board. I've recently started trying to work out how to play drums, and write drum lines. The first thing I did was to sit down and basically do what Dogbite mentioned - just play it exactly like I'd sing it . Same pulse, same emphasis in the same spots and so on, and it was clearly wrong. I need to learn to play a solid independent drum line that is part of a foundation, not just try and ape what the singer does. There's drumming overlap with the bass player and rhythm guitar, but they don't all need to march the same line.

Then, as Dogbite says, the singer should be able to weave in and and out and "play with the groove" rather that do just what someone else is already doing. I can't do that yet. I've just started trying to earn more about singing, and currently I need to play the melody line (usually on a piano) and then follow it exactly. If I play just chords I don't yet have the skill or confidence to sing any note but the the most obvious one suggested by the chord. Workable but predictable. Just practice I assume....

Currently, if I play a C chord I can sing a C (roughly..) reasonably easily. Then maybe an E or a G. Singing a Bflat with confidence would probably elude me, and I would sing the note on the same beat as I'd play (at least I'd try to...). I'd like to be able to sing on the off-beat, or lead or lag a bit, or do various other vocal things that I don't even know how to think about properly yet, let alone do... :?

Chris

Session co-ordination time...

GREAT drummers play "from the feet up". You'll notice that a session drummer...first time hearing the tune...just taps out the beat on crossed sticks...then his feet go to work...then he comes in with sticks on skins. Again, the bassist and the guitarist co-ordinate with these same moves (by watching the pick hand and the footpedal). Vocals, keyboards, lead (etc) stand on this "floor".

No kiddin': if the vocalist ain't twitchin' to the rhythm section...the session is a waste of time!

Cat

No kiddin': if the vocalist ain't twitchin' to the rhythm section...the session is a waste of time!

Cat

So what are some of the possibilities Cat? "twitchin" can mean a whole heap of things. :)

I'm currently attempting to learn how to build a song 'from the ground up'. But where to start? The drummer can work out what to play behind a certain tune, but that assumes that somebody else is playing it in the first place. I don't think that I have to start - as a songwriter - from any particular place or part, but let's assume I have a melody line to work from.

My next move might be to try and write a starting drum track, or 'rhythm song' or whatever it's called. Get the basic pulse established. The next layer might be a bass line or a rhythm guitar part or whatever. But, as I see it, they all have the obligation to respect the basic underlying beat. However, they also have the opportunity to add or decorate that in some way, or play around with it a bit, preferably without getting in each other's way. That can include all manner of tricks and techniques that can include playing ahead of the beat, or behind it or whatever. Jazz players, for instance, have a range of ways of doing things that I can hear, but can't yet begin to describe or copy.

It's endlessly fascinating, and the more I try and pin it down the slipperier and more intriguing it all gets... :mrgreen:

Any further enlightment most welcome.

Cheers,

Chris

yeah. you all understood what I meant. the 14 chord verse...yeah. I don't have examples of that kind of rhythm. it is easier to name good examples. the most obvious is the delta and piedmont blues. then we have Richie Havens. great strumming emotion and not many chords. 'Freedom' comes to mind.

in music some notes are longer than others..thus.. the melodic line.
the melodic line , in a way, can have it's own tempo.
the rhythm section keeps time. it keeps the tempo but can play with the beats.
the beats and melodic line interplay creating less robot and more expression. :note2:

Chris...this is directed more in a general sense rather than to you directly. But since you asked:

The first thing to decide is to whether or not this composition is just "for good times" or seriously for some other enduring purpose (like the mortgage). If it's for good times...just let everyone play as they feel it. If not, you gotsta be a nazi about it. You gotsta PRODUCE a PRODUCT. (And for all you folks thinking "Commercialize my music? Me? No way!" ask yourself if you'd feel better out of debt and playing for a living rather than "staying next to your music" working in a music store. Commercial is commercial...)

Again...and I HIGHLY stress this point...get your pick hand RULING what the drummer does. The bassist is the bridge between percussion and rhythm...so he's gotsta feed off BOTH the foot pedal AND your pick hand. I'm tellin' ya, Chris...this WORKS and foregoes all sorts of frustration and finger wagging/arm flapping on your part. (If there's anything I can teach you...THIS is the point to take in!)

But being a nazi is EASIER if you're PAYING someone to come up with their parts. (You get to fire them, otherwise.) If you aren't expecting a fiduciary obligation on their part...they need to respect your decision and trust you to do the right thing. As for you...you ALREADY know how the other band members groove...so (hopefully) in your envisioning of how it's all gonna sound...you already know. There can be lots of injuns...but just one chief!

Get your dynamics right. Get the structure right. The middle eight has GOT to be STRONG and MEMORABLE...or it's a "muddle" eight. Don't over produce. Save your spit for the middle eight. You need to have a fresh listener "expect" what's coming next without ever even hearing it before...and they should be able to humm it back at 'cha when it's been played only once.

It's nigh on imposkibubble to explain to someone what a "hit" is. You just know it whens yuh hears it. If you are ever fortunate enough to close a take just right...then you all go nice and quiet and just GLARE at each other...you'll know EXACTLY why you were put on this Earth!

Platinum awaits ya, Chris!