The mother of all practice questions

I like what your doing with your practice routine -- but I want to encourage you to keep noodling! It's important for me (anyway) to have both structured practice where I track my goals and the work I've done to address my weaknesses, and time to sit back and play with the guitar and remind myself why I'm doing all that hard work!

I wrote up something on learning to express your own musical ideas effortlessly a while back. I'm reposting here.

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Ear Training the Right Way

There are a remarkable number of ear training programs out there these days. They range from web pages offering free sound clips to expensive computer programs with full midi capabilities. What amazes me is that all of these high tech solutions are entirely unnecessary. More importantly, apart from being unneeded, they almost all fail to actually provide for useful ear training for an aspiring musician.

The purpose of ear training for a musician is three-fold. First, there is the goal of being able to play what you hear, that is, to be able to figure out a song from a recording or to mimic another musician. Second, there is the goal of being able to identify that what you are playing is correct by comparing what you hear to the written music. Lastly, there is the goal of being able to imagine some music, and then to recreate that imagined piece on your instrument.

What the astute reader will undoubtedly pick up on is that all three of those purposes involve the musician's instrument! And this is where the vast majority of computer programs fail.

Ear training is something that needs to happen with your instrument in hand, not with a mouse and keyboard.

Further it's very simple to do.

Here are the three exercises you need to train your ear. And yes, it really is this simple.

Exercise I: Play children's songs!

Sit down with your guitar and think up a child's tune. Mary Had a Little Lamb, Ring Around the Rosie, Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star, whatever. Now, pick a key. It doesn't matter what key it is. Now, play the song you hear in that key.

That's it. Since most people know dozens and dozens of children's tunes, it will take a long time to run out of songs here. In the meantime, listen to more children's music to get additional songs to figure out.

Once you get to the point where it takes you only a few minutes to pick out a melody, you're ready for exercise 2.

Exercise II: Learn “real” songs!

This is a much more fun exercise, and much more rewarding. Put down the tabs, put away the music books and get out a CD of a song you want to learn. To start with you'll want to focus on music that has very clear lines that are easy for you to hear. Play the CD a few times, now start picking out the melody. Once you have the melody, start picking out the base notes and chords. Get to the point where you can play the whole song.

For the next few months, every time you want to learn a song, learn it this way.

Exercise III: Socialize!

Here's where it starts getting fun. Get together with other musicians and take turns playing licks for each other. Try to respond with the same lick.
Once you can do that, then start making up your own variations and phrasings based on what the other person plays. If they play a major lick, for example, try to imagine it transposed to a minor key and play that. Or try moving it up a 5th. Have fun with it.

Again it will take some time, but once you can do this reliably, you will have a very well developed ear.

And here's the important thing – now instead of being able to listen to a midi piano playing a minor-7th interval, you'll be able to play music that you imagine, or hear. Your skill will actually have a performance context around it and a daily utility. Best of all, this method of ear training, while not only more effective than sitting in front a computer (because it involves you using your instrument) it is a lot more fun!

Okay I like that you are dedicated to learning the fretboard, but you are dumping way too much theory into your daily practice routine.

The ear training advice posted above is good.

My advice, if you know no theory which it basically seems like you don't, would be this---

Forget running through chromatic scales and naming notes. That is not very helpful. The reason I say this is because once you know one note you can just say "okay so next one is a half step up must be X and next one must be X sharped" this is going to cause you to end up not really remembering where any note is and you are going to get overly reliant on working off of other notes to find out where certain ones are.

Now is that really a bad thing? No, it is not, it just isn't that efficient. A better way (and probably a quicker way) to learn the notes on the fretboard is this. Just pick one note each day for two weeks and play it in all positions on the fretboard for fifteen minutes. Play it, say it while you play it, hear it, and then find the next spot it has. This is easier than it sounds since the notes repeat after the 12th fret (which you probably know) and you will also see that there is a pattern between them all.

Now...the other thing you should do each day is interval training. This will train your ear, your hands, and help you to learn the notes and scales really quickly. Basically what I mean by this is just go along two strings (start with 6th and 5th) and play all the intervals starting with the unison and ending on the octave. This will help you understand harmony a little better and get your feet wet for getting into chords.

**Hint** The interval between every string is a perfect forth except between G and B which is a major 3rd.

After you have done intervals (and know them all cold on every string!), then you could jump into triads. Triads will be a natural extension of your interval training because they are simply major and minor 3rd intervals arranged in different ways. For example:

C major triad: made up of a major 3rd - minor 3rd interval (1-3-5) C-E-G

C minor triad: made up of a minor 3rd- major 3rd interval (1-b3-5) C-Eb-G

C augmented triad: made up of a major 3rd - major 3rd interval (1-3-#5) C-E-G#

C diminished triad: made up of a minor 3rd - minor 3rd interval (1-b3-b5) C-Eb-Gb

Learn every triad solid in every key and every position then you can move into seventh chords and other extensions. I can't emphasize how crucial learning these basics is. Everything in harmony is built off of the stuff I listed above (which all grows out of the major scale!) so you need to have a solid handle on this before jumping into deeper stuff. You will see that it is all logical and learning this stuff cold may take some time but will be well worth it.

One final thing, the circle of fifths can really aid in learning all this stuff a lot quicker. Let me know if any of the above stuff isn't clear or you have any other questions.

mynar, you can do the same thing basing chords on each note of the major scale by using 7ths. you have to figure out which 7th to use, whether major, dominant, minor, or diminished. it shouldn't be that hard. you only use the notes within the scale to create the chords. then you can do the same with 9ths and 11ths and 13ths. you can also do the same thing with the 3 minor scales. you can also work on modes... that'll get your jazz knowledge strong.
also, like he said, ear training is huge. being able to copy what you hear will expand your horizons a ton.

Ok, to clarify how much music theory I know...
I've studied keys (circle of fifths), chords, scales and intervals but I've basically gotten my feet wet with them. I can work out something that involves theory but it takes me some time to figure it out.

When you talk about practicing intervals, I've only practiced them on the major scale forms in thirds. How is it that you are suggesting I do it? Do I find a C and then call it a unison, jump to D call it a major 2nd, E a major third, F a perfect 4th, so on and so forth? Do I do this on all the strings I can or just on a few?

Thanks

Ok, to clarify how much music theory I know...
I've studied keys (circle of fifths), chords, scales and intervals but I've basically gotten my feet wet with them. I can work out something that involves theory but it takes me some time to figure it out.

When you talk about practicing intervals, I've only practiced them on the major scale forms in thirds. How is it that you are suggesting I do it? Do I find a C and then call it a unison, jump to D call it a major 2nd, E a major third, F a perfect 4th, so on and so forth? Do I do this on all the strings I can or just on a few?

Thanks
I am talking about learning all the intervals on every string all over. No shortcuts!

So you would take the 6th string as your root at say C and then find all the other intervals with C on the 5th string. It is important to let the INTERVAL ring out, so keep the C fretted if you can and play the two notes together.

Then move it down and find C on the 5th string and do all the intervals on the 4th string etc. Do this for every note and you see very quickly that each interval has a pattern and that these patterns are all the same unless the G string is the "root" string or falls between the two strings you are using to make up your intervals (i.e. D string and B string)

See http://www.hotfrets.com/chords/guitar_interval_game.asp for a kind of fun way to do it. Basically play that game on your guitar.

Also how well do you know the circle of fifths? It can tell you a lot more than just keys. You should really know it cold. Can you see it in your head?

It can be tedious, but you should memorize it completely (if you haven't already). That way when someone asks you how many sharps in the key of B major, for example, you could immediately answer 5, know that the sharps are F# C# G# D# A# and that the relative minor scale was G# minor.

That way, from there harmonizing the B major scale (or any other scale) is going to be a lot easier and more logical.

Plus, if you understand the fretboard and can visualize it in your mind's eye you will understand that between the 6th and 5th strings the IV chord is always directly below the note on the 6th string (i.e. B major7 - E major7 for example) and from there it's just a whole step to the fifth chord (F#7). That combined with knowing the 6th chord immediately (G#min7) (from the circle of fifth minor keys) and viola! you instantly know 4 chords in a key! You only need to figure out the ii, iii, and viidim chords and that should be easy, just build them off the ones you already know!

One more thing, about practicing the major scale in thirds. I'm not sure I understand do you mean when you say you are practicing it this way. Do you have it harmonized out in thirds and are playing three notes per string?

Ok basically what I do is... well you know how you crack a scale book and you see a major sclae form sitting there? Well instead of playing C D E F G A B C, I Play it C E - D F - E G - F A - G B - A C - B D - C E. Then I play it backwards E C - D B... back down. So If you ran a major sclae form in one position, basically I play a C, then skip the D to the major third E then I play the D and it's major third F, following the scale form. Does that make sense?

Also, on your practice method, Would I do C on 6th string, pluck D two frets up and call it a Major 2nd, then go to the 5th string 7th fret and Call it a major third? How would you practice this without confusing all of the intervals? Would you say for instance, today Im going to do major seconds, and then work them all out, and the next day do major thirds, etc.

As far as the circle of fifths goes, I know it and I can see it in my mind, but sometimes I have to like count out on my fingers how many sharps or flats and then mutter father charles goes down and ends battle (or battle ends and down goes charles' father). And the farther away I get from C / Am the harder a time I have getting it.

mynar, you can do the same thing basing chords on each note of the major scale by using 7ths. you have to figure out which 7th to use, whether major, dominant, minor, or diminished. it shouldn't be that hard. you only use the notes within the scale to create the chords. then you can do the same with 9ths and 11ths and 13ths. you can also do the same thing with the 3 minor scales. you can also work on modes... that'll get your jazz knowledge strong.
also, like he said, ear training is huge. being able to copy what you hear will expand your horizons a ton.

Not quite, methinks. Almost, but not quite. Play a simple chord sequence - C-Am-F-G for example, then play the same sequence using 7ths - Cmaj7- Am7- Fmaj7-G7 and then try is using 9ths, 11ths and 13ths. You'll be amazed at what you learn about sounds and hanging them all together from doing so.

Practice schedules - check out Jamey Andreas's site for some thinking on this too - any practice schedule is better than no practice schedule. the important thing is that it's organic - changing as you develop. Work with the schedule you've set yourself and review it regularly to make sure it's still valid. Let us know how it's going and post the new version.

Best,

A :-)

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Well I guess my revised practice would go something like this

Chromatics with metronome for warm-up (Everyday)
Major Scale with Metronome (Now would I vary this by staying in a Key for like a week and going through a mode a day? Basically playing Root to root. Or should I just stick with major and switch Keys each day?)
(Also, should I say each note while I play these?)

????--Intervals (No clue as to how to practice these. 2nds one day, 3rds, the next or pick a note and do each interval like C and then do a Minor 2nd, Maj2nd, Min 3rd, Maj 3rd, Dim 4th, Dim 5th, etc?)
????--I guess after I master intervals I would tackle Major chords, then Minor, then 7ths, 9ths, etc

Then Pick a note and find everywhere I can play it on the fretboard and say it while I pick it. (Maybe do this for 5 minutes. Next day go through previous note once and pick a new note)

Then Sight reading to further fretboard knowledge and well, sight-reading abilities.

Make a chord progression in today's key and loop it. Then use an appropriate scale over it to improvise.

Now I guess I move on to try and learn a song by ear. However, the nursery rhyme thing doesn't seem to work for me, I don't really know any well enough. Do you look em up online and listen to them while you pick em out?

After that I guess noodling is all that's left?

So I guess learning too much at one time can really diminish the value of the material. IE, trying to learn the whole fretboard at once, learnign every scale and mode at once, etc. So One key, one scale/mode, one note, one chord to learn all over the neck a day. But as for this interval thing, it really confuses me. First of all, how is this more beneficial than skipping to building chords, and second, how the hell do you work this into a practice routine? Do you pick a note and do a specific interval? Do you just learn all the ways you can make that interval between strings? I guess the question is, what am I trying to learn and how will I apply it, and with that information I can formulate a practice method that will teach it to me. Also, ear training, any other ideas on this? Or should I just do my chord progression and scalar practice and hope I pick it up? Sometimes when I hear a solo and an artist does a certain bend, I can recognize it immediately. But I wouldn't know it unless it was a bend I did a thousand times while improvising. So is time really the only player?

Thoughts are appreciated,
Lee

PS- I'm counting on you guys!

Well I guess my revised practice would go something like this

Chromatics with metronome for warm-up (Everyday)

Okay good idea.

Major Scale with Metronome (Now would I vary this by staying in a Key for like a week and going through a mode a day? Basically playing Root to root. Or should I just stick with major and switch Keys each day?)
(Also, should I say each note while I play these?)

Also a good idea. Just run through the different patterns of each of them. And sure you can say the notes as you play them, but if you just pick one note a day and focus on that you'll learn them quick enough anyway.

????--Intervals (No clue as to how to practice these. 2nds one day, 3rds, the next or pick a note and do each interval like C and then do a Minor 2nd, Maj2nd, Min 3rd, Maj 3rd, Dim 4th, Dim 5th, etc?)
????--I guess after I master intervals I would tackle Major chords, then Minor, then 7ths, 9ths, etc

Yeah I didn't really make that very clear. Basically what you need to do is just memorize all the intervals on the guitar. Here is a link to a diagram with all the intervals on it.

So yeah what you said is basically right though, take an interval a day and just learn it. Say perfect fifth one day, minor second the next etc, learn it all over the neck.

Now how is that helpful? For one this is the most basic ear training you can do. If you want to actually hear the difference between major and minor tones intervals are the best place to start. Second, memorizing the intervals is going to help you learn the fretboard FAST. Third, eventually you will start to see how these intervals work to form triads and eventually bigger chords. Soon you will even see the intervals in the major scale patterns you have been practicing. Basically, learning the intervals is like learning about the cells in the body of every other piece of music (if that makes ANY sense). They are the basis for everything and it may seem tedious to memorize them, but believe me it's worth it. Just TAKE YOUR TIME it will take a while (maybe months or more) for them to click really in there, so don't worry, just go at your own pace!

Then Pick a note and find everywhere I can play it on the fretboard and say it while I pick it. (Maybe do this for 5 minutes. Next day go through previous note once and pick a new note)

Cool, I would do it maybe like first though after you warm up. It's boring, but you'll really need to only do this for a couple weeks and memorizing the intervals will also help you out.

Then Sight reading to further fretboard knowledge and well, sight-reading abilities.

Awesome, I wish I could sight read.

Make a chord progression in today's key and loop it. Then use an appropriate scale over it to improvise.
Cool, that sounds like fun. Remember you can also rip progressions from songs you like and try to hear what they are and understand why they work.

Now I guess I move on to try and learn a song by ear. However, the nursery rhyme thing doesn't seem to work for me, I don't really know any well enough. Do you look em up online and listen to them while you pick em out?
guys!
Screw that. Just listen to some rock music by bands you like, take on simple songs and just figure em out by ear. Or sing out and interval and then try to play it.

After that I guess noodling is all that's left?

Yeah, or playing along to songs maybe. Remember to keep it fun, but focused.

So I guess learning too much at one time can really diminish the value of the material.
OH GOD YES. TAKE IT SLOW PLEASE. IT WILL TAKE A LIFETIME, THERE IS NO RUSH.

And remember to always have fun! Theory can get dry, so remember to always set aside for just playing your instrument. And don't think that you are obligated to stick to a schedule or whatever, don't want it to become a chore.

Is that a little clearer? I hope I explained intervals better....

mynar, you can do the same thing basing chords on each note of the major scale by using 7ths. you have to figure out which 7th to use, whether major, dominant, minor, or diminished. it shouldn't be that hard. you only use the notes within the scale to create the chords. then you can do the same with 9ths and 11ths and 13ths. you can also do the same thing with the 3 minor scales. you can also work on modes... that'll get your jazz knowledge strong.
also, like he said, ear training is huge. being able to copy what you hear will expand your horizons a ton.

Not quite, methinks. Almost, but not quite. Play a simple chord sequence - C-Am-F-G for example, then play the same sequence using 7ths - Cmaj7- Am7- Fmaj7-G7 and then try is using 9ths, 11ths and 13ths. You'll be amazed at what you learn about sounds and hanging them all together from doing so.

i can't tell at all the difference between what you said and what i said.

Like I said in another thread, I don't practise, I play guitar. I've never learned a scale - but I've learned a hell of a lot of chords, most of them in the last couple of years at GN. I know how to play them, where to play them on the fretboard, and more importantly, when to use them.

Maybe you want a lot more out of guitar than me - I'm quite happy playing rhythm, slide and a little lead. A restrictive, regimented practise regime would take ALL the fun out of playing guitar for me - and that's why I picked one up all those years ago, to have fun.

What you get out of the guitar depends what you put into it - and I'm happy enough with what comes out of mine. That's just my particular take on the subject - sounds like you're putting a lot into it, I hope you get a lot out. But don't ever let it get to the stage where you think, "Oh no - got to practise!" Playing ANYTHING on the guitar counts as practise, to me.

:D :D :D

Vic

Ok, second revision then

Firstly, chromatics.

Then, Plunk a note in every possible spot on the guitar, switching notes each session

Next, Pick an interval, and find it's relation among all strings, within one octave I guess. So, do you need to worry about hitting that interval once you pass the octave? I guess this would be like (if you were working on 2nds) hitting the 9th in a chord? Basing it on those links you provided, those are all within the octave of the root. I guess for the purpose of ear training in relation to guitar, you would want to hit notes that are convenient? Or is it still even a minor second? IE, if you hit 6th string 5th fret to 6th fret, is 6th string 5th fret to 4th string 8th fret still a minor second?

After this I run a scale or two. Maybe I'll do Majors or Pentatonic or Minors. Maybe Modes? Any thoughts on a good way to run some scales?

Now I do some sight-reading. (The goal here is really so I can learn the fretboard super well and also so I can buy a music book and play it. I hate tab, it's easy but it also doesn't seem to take you as far.)

Loop a progression and try a scale against it. Oh, quick question here, how do you use modes in terms of chord progressions? Is like, C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phyrgian, etc all part of the key of C? So if I play a progression in C and I focus on Dm, would I play D Dorian against it? Or would you really be playing a progression out of the Key of D Dorian? Hehe, would that be like:

I ii iii IV V vi vii

Dm Em F G Am Bdim C

Then I could work on some songs from bands I like.

Or just play some stuff I already know.

Any thoughts on that? Also, if you have every interval down cold on your guitar, is that how some musicians can hear a piece and play it by ear? Also what do you do once you know intervals?

modes work like this. on a piano, c ionian is all the white keys from c to c. d dorian is all the white keys from d to d. e phrygian is all the white keys from e to e. etc. of course, if you're playing e ionian or bflat myxolidian, you'll have sharps or flats, but that's the simplest way to look at it. so if you're playing a mode, you're using the same notes as the major scale or natural minor, but you're basing it on a different tonic and you're making it resolve to a different note, so you have to phrase things differently.

Your new practice schedule looks fine.

Honestly I think you are thinking about it too much.

As for modes and such...don't worry about them. Work on the basics and come back here asking about modes in a couple of months (or more) when you actually understand intervals and triads and such. Trying to learn it now is jumping in the deep end when you can't swim at all and it is going to do you a lot more harm then good.

I think that's all I am going to say in here. You seem dedicated, so I hope you enjoy yourself and stick to your guns. I promise you will see results soon. Just go slow and above all else ENJOY YOURSELF.

Anyone else that wants to weigh in feel free.