Shortening bridge saddle to achieve intonation?

You should not have to grind the saddle, although it has been done before, as a last resort.

Are you missing something? Not yet. Inability to intonate a Strat with a tremolo is usually due to having a high tail end, where your intonation screws are located. To correct that, you loosen strings, and tighten springs. :shock: Tighten the 3 or more springs to the claw in the back trem cavity. A lower tail or flatter bridge lengthens strings, naturally. But it makes for less floating action. Still, not a problem - the trem was designed principally for one-way movement, or for the dive bomb. Any pulling-up is a bonus, though SRV made it look all intentional. :roll: I know, true floating trems are supposed to be used both ways, and they can be.

I have never seen a vertical shim at the back of a neck pocket in a bolt-on guitar. I guess the reason for that is that the 4 neckplate screws would no longer line up with the holes in the neck, as you "lengthen" it. So, that is not an option.

Also, the traditional 21 fret Strat has no fretboard overhang, such as the 22 fret model. A gap there could be visible. But, the neck screws always have to line up.

Thanks
That sounds reasonable. I didn't think about the 4 screw holes. I will try tightening the springs, although I love where the tension is on the tremolo. I am using a 22 fret neck. I am also using two springs and a Trem Setter. I guess all this is from different parts, ie, Fender american body, after market bridge, and neck.

There is one other thing I have always wondered; even when everything is intonated and working good, the high E string is really bouncy?, meaning it fluctuates alot back and forth and is more sensitive to get it right in tune. When it is in tune, I can still hear the harmonics warbling slightly when the tuner says it's in tune? It's like when you tune manually by harmonics, but the warbling sound never quite goes to a constant tone? It does play well, and most of my 4 strats that I have built have done this?

I have chosen, put together, wired, and setup 4 strats so far over the years, and I am getting where I am just lacking the fine tunning, fret buzz on the top end of the neck, which I have remedied by neck adjustment and shimming, and issues like the saddle questions. I really appreaciate the advice. I have found there is a pretty wide range of different answers for any particular questions, but I am learning.
Thanks!
Mark

You're welcome Mark. And it all sounds good!

I take it for the granted that the E is bouncy, like you say, and they even make my eyes go buggy too, looking at the vibration. :lol:

You can remedy that while tuning, by using your picking hand or plectrum further down, to lessen the amplitude, or the amount the string swings. Actually they move in an elliptical pattern, like tracing an oval, and not side to side, so bouncy was a good choice of word. 8)

Now, about that warbling thing, I wonder if you have the upper or left side of your pickups set too high, and that would put magnetic pull on the string, and cause gauss.

Then, gauss in turn causes a perceived lack of tuning stability, difficult intonation, and some weird overtones that are off pitch. Basically, it's just a garbled sound full of junk. :!:

Here's a look at how my son did his bridge. I'd do the same I guess, but each is unique. It's a Fender, but he built it too.

Nawww, we see things a little different. I made my self-titled Signature Custom intonated but fully floating. Don't need EMG's, the pickups are SC & "supercharged" hee hee, and poles are low enough to stop gauss, on the left and for B. :mrgreen:

Looks good!
I have the same saddles on my bridge, and I will never use the old stock fender saddles again.
The pu height helped the high strings, I'm still messing with it. Thanks!

I think I'm going to grind the low E saddle. The trem is tighter than I would like it, and I am still out of adjustment? The G is intonated, but no adjustment left.
I do it slowly with a dremel, so it still looks good, just shorter.

It all happened when I shimmed the neck in the front of the heel to get rid of buzzin on the top of the neck.
I did succeed in doing that. Once I get it fully intonated, I'm done and happy with it! (We both know your never completely done), but I'm happy for now.
I'm going to try to send a picture, but i'm not sure how to do it on here.
Do you have any other thoughts about the intonation?
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0df38b3127ccef97237bc077800000170O00AbuWrNkzasWYPbz4Q/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Thanks again!
Mark

That is a beautiful guitar, and I guess you're talking about problems with another one, or a Strat with the same type of saddles as my son's and mine. I took the liberty of assuming you had the new American saddles because they are the biggest offenders in these intonation wars. :lol: Also, they are the type that people grind, when frustrated.

It is really curious that your problem happened when you shimmed the neck. I think that caused you to raise the saddles and lengthen the strings slightly, by literal micrometers. Than can put the intonation out. Yet is is necessary, when you shim, or use microtilt.

I had the same issue with my new 3-barrel Tele at Christmas, which came with a poor setup from the factory. I told the dealer that is was not playable as-is, and asked for a setup (or $50 off :roll: ) BEFORE I bought it, but he strongly suggested that I would want to do my own setup anyway and he chided me for trying to push for a discount, so all he could do was to give me a set of new 10 -46's, which are my favorites, when the guitar came with 9 - 42's. It's a long story, but I shimmed and unshimmed. I adjusted the truss rod too, tighten it to almost flatten the neck - that made the strings longer. And without a shim, I lowered the saddles to their lowest functional point. I kept the 9 - 42's for now, and it plays as smooth as butter, and bends insanely.

Okay, so you asked "Do you have any other thoughts about the intonation?" All I can suggest is that you either remove the shim and lower the saddles, or tighten the rod until you have decreased the relief, eliminating most of the bow, and keep a minimal bow, the least that you can get by on. Maybe just do one or the other, because doing both at the same time is pretty intense - maybe 3 hours if you exercise a lot of caution, to avoid damage to the guitar. Or it could be one hour, if you've done this frequently.

And here's something to look at while all things fail. But personally, I don't understand the logic in shortening strings with a sliding nut, when I believe our problem is already short strings which go sharp. So, until I "get it" or see the elusive light that escapes me, I'm okay with going by feel, and by ear, and of course using the tuner if required, since I have no oscilloscope. So yes, I acknowledge the intonation problem particularly with Strats and their trem bridges, but I have always been able to dig my way out with troubleshooting and patience, and intensive hands-on. But this is supposed to make it easy:

http://www.buzzfeiten.com/

That's probably long enough, but I want to cover it all - at least all that I know, trying to help. I noticed that you are using a 2 point pivot system on your bridge, in the picture, instead of 6. Some sites, luthiers and some players do that as a personalized or hot rod mod. And you can usually get away with it, but it won't last forever, if parts wear down from frequent use. I have no issues with that. But if you have a 2 point trem (instead of the 6 screws) on an American Standard, Strat Plus, New American or Deluxe and a few others, it can lose intonation as the "knife edge" pivot points and/or the posts wear out... and the bridge moves forward?

A took a couple hours and fiddled with the neck adjustment, a little with the saddles, took some of the relief out, and walahh! No buzz, low action, intonated, and I love playing it! (No room for adjustment on the low E, but I shouldn't need it)
Thanks for all your help. I think I have most of the puzzle to the setup, although I'm sure I'll run into something else.
The picture of my guitar looks like old saddles, but they are flat like the newer models. That's why I said it looked like your's. :mrgreen:
Thank's again
Mark

You're welcome, it's been a pleasure talking Strats. Congratulations on finalizing your little dilemma. :D

With no present need to talk about tuning, I must say I really like your Chrome Blue and Pearl Strat with matching headstock and custom logo. That is just beautiful.

I'm curious, as a builder and hot-rodder myself - did you use a push/pull pot on the last tone position to obtain some unique series or parallel sounds, or the 7 options with all pickups on, or do you love to roll that Tele knob with your pinkie for wah? 8)

Actually, I wired it for 7 sound with the push pull on the volume and the stock knob. That worked until the first time I used the tremolo bar and found out that it is right over the volume and pops it back down :lol:
I then put a switch in the far tone, wired it on the top lugs of the switch, so that the different sound were on when it is down and put the stock knob back on.
I never thought of rolling the knob for effect, probably would be interesting.

The Switch down is:
1. bridge only
2. bridge and middle (my favorite)
3. bridge and middle
4. all pickups
5. bridge and neck (my 2nd favorite)

It works really good for me because I hardly ever use the neck alone or the middle alone, and rarely the neck and middle. That makes it so I have all the sounds I like to use without flipping anything!

I know sounds are so different to everyone's ear, but the bridge and neck is a great sound. It sound alot like a Tele, does country good, and sound great for clean stuff. I don't know why Fender never put it into most strats.

I'm curious about the pickups you were talking about that you put on yours? I have Fender Hot Noiseless pickups and I think they are really great for everything, but I'm always looking for something new. I don't have any trouble getting from fire breathing to very clean, because I play through a POD XT Live and Tube amps, which allows me to get any sound. I've played through it for about three years or better and spent hours and hours and hours and hours creating sounds. It''s also a great hobby! My favorite sound is my favorite until I find a new one. Lot of fun.
Thanks again
Mark

Thanks for the PM, I'll get to that later, and I missed the previous post as you could probably tell. :oops:

I like the way you've wired your Strat, and I know you've wired many. Hotrodders like us came up with the "Magnificent 7" quite awhile ago. Fender had 9 sounds in 1980 - 83 with "The Strat" which is credited to FMIC Prez. Dan Smith, though it was designed by one of his handpicked hotshots. And more recently, they have the S-1 switching on their Deluxes, but those knobs started to fall apart as quickly as they introduced them. I'm sure there's some that are still together, but I got complaints about them, and it wasn't even my fault? :roll:

So, I fixed a couple of those for people anyway, but I'm a disciple of Emmett Brown's tone at http://www.deaf-eddie.net and biased in favor of 1, 2, 3 or 4 switches that I co-created or had some input into over there - I can not take credit, it is not my enterprise. I haven't counted, but I DO have 2 or 3 one-offs from him, and gave him my favorite ideas for 2 on the market, including the 11 sound Fat-O-Caster for fatties, a Memphis Mod and I made a 26 sound variation of his 16 sound Chromacaster for myself.

Getting back to the 7 sound, yes I like that bookend pickup sound of the Tele, on a Strat. :lol: I still have my first modded Strat with the push/pull on the volume, and try not to hit it with the whammy. All the Strats I have done since have the p/p on the far tone like yours. I stagger the knobs from lower to higher as you move away from the volume, in the direction of the tone knobs, to make the last knob sit up a bit, so that you can get fingers under the skirt and flip it quick. :shock:

Those particular pickups were made for me by Benny Trevillian when he was active, and are of a special design which I initiated. He doesn't make pickups any more due to problems on a certain guitar forum, and he shuns publicity - I see he's canceled his Facebook site too, though his claim to fame was being the man behind True Tone Technologies and making a special humbucker for Billy Gibbons; I believe it was WITH Billy Gibbons - then I had to get 2 of them with a little twist (not quite as dirty or crunchy, but almost... my specs instead) in black, and 2 in chrome as well through my private connection with him. He was being hassled for being a snob for not answering emails, or not being able to meet demand, so too many people called him a snob, and he certainly didn't need that. He is a family man first with another business to run, and I respect that.

Long story short, I have always had my pickups made by Tony Amendolare at ElectroKraft but he doesn't make buckers, and would you believe - Benny didn't make singles, but I have them? To solve the problem and get the exact pickups I wanted, I gave my idea for singles, or a different version to Electrokraft so anybody can have their construction & basic format with really great tone, while they are quiet and without hum; and Tony also made the Magnedyne pickup with a trimpot, while I have my alternating tone circuit hidden somewhere else - Tony brought it out in the open! http://www.gearwire.com/electrokraft-magnadynepickup.html

So I don't put my foot in my mouth, I am not associated with any of these companies and am never listed or mentioned as a co-creator of anything. And I also give heaps of credit to Cam Atkinson of Bowmanville Ontario who is an excellent and skilled pickup maker, very co-operative (willing to be flexible, and accomodating) and professional too. 8)