beginner PA system

Aldamir

I don't have anything bad to say about Phonics, but this particular PA you are looking at is very underpowered. This PA would work well for an Acoustic guitar type group in very small venus like a coffee house. But if you have loud electric guitars, bass, and drums it will be hopelessly underpowered. You will have to crank it all the way up to be heard, if you can even hear the vocals then. At these settings the amp will distort and clip which will sound horrible and also damage the speakers.

This PA has a two channel amp. That is really two amps in one box. I looked up the specs. It doesn't specify how many ohms the speakers are, but more than likely they are 8 ohms each. You would hook one speaker up to each side of the amp. At 8 ohms you will get 70 watts of power from the amp.

For a Rock band, you really should have at least a 200 watt poweramp minimum. This is about the lowest power you can go and get good clean vocals over electric guitars and drums.

When it comes to PA's, power is everything. You want very powerful amplifiers. This enables you to play at high volumes cleanly. You don't want distortion in a PA. You want the cleanest, most natural sound possible.

Unfortunately, PA's are VERY expensive. It is hard to build a decent PA with minimum requirements for under $1000 US. There is some very good equipment at very reasonable prices though. You should look into Behringer. They are about the best bang-for-the-buck out there. They make very good, reliable gear. I know, I own a Behringer PA and it has performed very well many times.

Here are just some suggestions on gear.

Behringer PMX660M Powered Mixer

OK, this powered mixer has two 300 watt amplifiers. So it has the power for a Rock band. It also has 8 channels so you could have up to 6 microphones plus a Stereo input like a keyboard. It has a built in EQ and effects. I don't think you will find any other Powered Mixer with all these features at this price.

For speakers....

Peavey PR-12

These Peavey speakers are one of the best buys out there. They are quality speakers, not junk. They will give you great sound. If all you are going to do is run vocals, 12" speakers are fine. If you want to mic the bass or drums then go with 15" speakers. Peavey also has this model in 15" for about $40 US more per speaker. These are very good speakers.

For mics...

Behringer XM8500 Microphone

This is a fantastic bargain. It is a high quality microphone that many say sounds as good as the Shure SM58 microphone which is the most popular mic for bands ever. It is probably not as durable as a SM58, but then, no mic is. But it has great sound, and is unbelieveably cheap. This is a terrific buy.

Those are just some of the things you need. You also need cables to connect the speakers to the PA head, microphone cables, and stands for the speakers. Later on you can add floor monitors for the musicians.

So you see this stuff adds up quick. But if you want quality vocals you have to put some money into it and get good gear.

These were just some suggestions. I study this stuff a lot. Everything I suggested here is quality gear.

If you have any questions about other PA systems, please ask. I will give my opinions. But remember, these are just my opinions. Others may disagree. I do have experience with this, I have been playing in live bands for many years and own my own PA.

Thank you, that was a great explanation. I do have one more question (at the time).

What exactly is the difference between a dual channel and a one channel amp? I'm pretty sure it's not double the power. For example, if i hook up two speaker to a 400 W one channel amp, what will be the power output to the speakers?

I will keep your advice in mind and look around some more.

EDIT: thought about another something: if i go with the amp you suggested, in order not to blow up the speakers, I would need some 300 W speakers. Would this be 300 Watt RMS or 300 Watt peak?

Since the site you gave me doesn's ship to outside US, I looked around for something like what you suggested, and i stumbled upon this:

http://www.netzmarkt.de/thomann/thoiw7_artikel-174397.html?sn=d6af640beffdeb7f838537dc559f9bbe

Is this a 2x400 W mixer, or just one channel.
This would then require 400 W speakers if im correct.

What exactly is the difference between the power rating in RMS, Program and Peak (I do know what RMS and peak mean, dont know how to match then to amplifiers though). And if displayed like this 300W/600W, which is which?

You are correct that the description is vague. My first guess is that it has two amps, 200W each.

Speakers can have RMS or Program ratings as low as 1/2 the amp rating without causing damage (in most cases).

That looks like a decent price (~$400) for a reasonable starter PA.

-Laz

That is a more powerful version of the Behringer mixer I showed you. This powered mixer has two amplifiers built in that provide 400 watts each at 4 Ohms. So if you hooked up two 8 Ohm speakers (most speakers are 8 ohms, though some are 4 and even fewer 16) to one side they would get 200 watts each. You can then run two 8 ohm monitors off the other side and they would get 200 watts each. Two 8 ohm speakers in parallel equals a 4 ohm load. So they would draw 400 watts off that side and split it equally between the two speakers.

Until you get monitors you could run one 8 ohm speaker off off each side or amp. At 8 ohms they will get around 70% of the power at 4 ohms, so each speaker would get around 280 watts each. This should be plenty loud for a Rock band. If you have 4 ohm speakers then each will get 400 watts.

But even 5000 watt PA systems can be buried by 100 watt guitar amplifiers turned up to 10. It takes discipline and good sense to get good sound.

Anyway, that is a very good powered mixer if you can afford it. Look around and see if they also carry the model I showed you. That could save you some money.

Peak is how much a speaker will handle in short spikes. RMS is the spec you want. That tells you how much power a speaker can handle continuously. So for an amp that puts out 300-400 watts you want a speaker that matches or handles even a little more power. So a speaker rated 250-500 watts RMS would be very good.

Tomorrow I will tell you about Sensitivity or Efficiency ratings of speakers.

Thank you both for the explanations.

And thanks Wes for the daily lesson.

I did look the model i posted below up on the behringer site, its listed as being a 400 Watt amp in bridge mode, and 2 * 200 W @ 4 Ohms. I supose this would still be enough

Is the power rating of the amplifier in peak values then? If you say a 200-250 RMS speaker for a 300 - 400 Watt amp. Or is this considering a 2 channel 300 - 400 Watt amp (the two channels being 150 to 200 Watt?)

Still confused :p

Did read up on SPL ratings today. Trying to get a good grip on this stuff before anything is decided.

For most quality amps, there is very little difference between the Peak and RMS (or continuous) power rating. Usually less than 10%.

For speakers, the rating is more like 2:1. Most speakers can handle twice the peak power as their RMS/Program rating.

As always, Wes has the details right.

-Laz

Boy, now you are asking tough questions. Different manufactures test amplifiers in different ways. Some test over a broad frequency range, others at one frequency. But the rating is a continuous rating.

I have owned a Behringer PMX2000 for 3 years. It is rated 2 X 250W @ 4 ohms. I have found it to be very powerful and reliable. By the way, if this powered mixer is available to you, it is an excellent product.

OK, if that Behringer powered mixer you showed provides 200 watts on each side at 4 ohms, then if you ran two 8 ohms speakers off each side they would get 100 watts each. So you can go with speakers with an RMS rating of 100 watts. If you run one 8 ohm speaker off each side it will get about 70% or 140 watts. So you would want a speaker with at least 150 watts RMS rating.

So I guess a good rule would be try to get speakers with a peak rating twice what the amplifier is rated.

Those Peavey speakers I showed you are rated 400W program (I think they mean RMS) and 800W peak.

If you see any specific gear you are interested in, post it here and everyone can talk about it.

This is what I would get if it where up to me.

This for the powered mixer:
http://www.behringer.com/PMH660M/index.cfm?lang=ENG

And two of these as speakers:
http://www.peavey-eu.com/products/messenger/pro12.cfm

This seems a very nice set up to me, which would if I'm not mistaking fully utilize the amps 2*200W @ 4 Ohm

HOWEVER:

Let me give you a small overview of why a PA system is needed.

Me and some friends started playing together as a band mostly for fun, without someone to sing. However, one of my friends dad heard us play, and decided we were good enough to perform at some local festivity at the end of august. Off course, first thing we started to do was looking for a someone to sing. We got lucky, and found someone who had never done any singing before, but from what I've heard her sing, is very talented. Problem is, off course, we need a PA. We can hardly ask someone who wants to give singing a try to begin by investing a large sum (well, large for us) to get a PA. So we decided the band should get one. However, and this is where our opinions begin to differ. My opinion is, if we are getting a PA system, we should at least get one thats able to let us do some small gigs. However, the others are very reluctant to invest in something like this, reasoning that it should only be enough for rehearsals, and that we could always rent something for gigs where equipment isnt supplied.

So my question now is: what is a reasonable minimum power needed to get vocals heard ONLY during rehearsals, and in a small room (I'm guessing around 20 m²). Another option I considered was just getting a powered speaker of around 300 Watt (just one). Would that sufice?

Thanks for all the help so far.

Aldamir

First of all, those Peavey speakers are a perfect match for the Behringer mixer. And Peavey speakers are good speakers. Getting 4 ohms speakers was a great idea.

The only downside to this is that if you ever wanted to add monitors later on you would have to buy another amp as well. You could not run 2 of these Peavey speakers off one side. That would be a 2 Ohm load. The Behringer is not designed for 2 Ohms. But you can go out of the line outs on this Behringer into another amp to power monitors.

Yes, you could simply buy a powered speaker and run a mic into it. Many people do that very thing.

As for you bands argument. People go both ways on that. Yes, you can hire sound. The advantage is you get professional quaility and don't have to worry about setup and upkeep to gear. You should get the power you need regardless of the venue. The downside is your money is gone.

Maybe it's just me, but I would rather own my own gear. I can use it anytime I want, and I have something for the money I invested. I can hire it out (and I have hired my PA out quite a few times) and make money, and I can sell it when I'm finished with it. The downside is I must upkeep it and set it up.

However, I don't usually go with the group buying a PA. If somebody leaves the band, what do you do? This is why I buy my own PA gear. If the band breaks up, I take my stuff with me. And I can start a new band much easier because I own a PA. So if you are serious about staying in music, a PA is a good thing to own.

So, I don't know what to tell you about the group buying a PA. Some groups do that, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Oh yeah, forgot your question. Hey, if you are playing electric guitars through loud amps, you are still gonna need this kind of power. Remember I said 200 watts was minimum. This PA you have picked up should be sufficient to play most clubs, especially if you guys know how to keep your volume down and play with dynamics. But it is the minimum.

Some groups have 5000-10,000 watt systems.

i own a "small" PA. started out with a peavey head an Kustom speakers with peavey monitors for my band to practice. I've slowly upgraded since We now have gotten to where we play more often, and I also play with two other groups. On top of this I get asked to run sound for other bands and local events in the community plus DJ events. started a small business Big Noise Productions and This is all I have

EMX 5000-12 Yamaha Powered Board (1000 watts)
2 Peavey PR-12"
2 Peavey 12" wedges
1 Behringer Sub
1 Nady 900 power amp(yes Nady this amp has rocked out in 90 degree temps and hasn't let me down yet)
6 AKG Mics
100' Snake
all appropriate cables to connect this stuff
That is small system compared to some. With my little rig i get asked to run sound for many local events and bands in our area. Makes a little money plus it's for me when I need it. If you going to buy a PA do it right the first time. I should have cuz in the end you will put out some money. Some may say this is too big for them. look at the plus because i have this i run sound and DJ now on top of my bands which makes more money.

This nowhere compares to my friends system. He owns a sound company that does national events as well as local....Pure Energy Productions......
just example how big some peoples PAs get. I have one sub...they have 14 pair........not 14.......14 pair or 18" q VETAs..... 8 pair Yamaha F series 12" mains. it takes a 20' trailer to haul 3/4 or thier rig.

so when u buy your PA's think deeply into it....is it for the long run or just temporary.. i thought mine was temporary but looked what it turned into