monitor feedback and sound level

Can you confirm that your mics have a "cardiod" pattern? If they are omni-directional, you can't win.

Also, do you have a separate monitor mix send, or are you using the same mix as the main PA? The monitor mix should only have the vocals in it, and it should be EQ'd differently, with less reverb.

The good news is that you should have much less trouble outdoors.

Some of the articles here ( https://www.guitarnoise.com/sound.php ) are helpful, although they don't discuss the situation directly. "Rehearse and Rehash" might help.

Let us know more specifics about the stage layout if you can.

-Laz

Here is a little scribble of how we have things set up in our practice basement..concrete and brick walls, not the greatest for acoustics, but the guy love it as there is plenty of room to spread out.

-----------------------(snake reel)-------------------------------------
--------X---X---------------X------[-drum set-] -------------X--X---X
----(guitar 1 amps)---X-----------hset mike-----------(guitar 2 amps)
----------------------( bass amp)-----------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------X-------------------------------------------------X---------------
-----(guitar 1)------------------------------------------- (guitar 2)-------
-------------------------Bass------------Singer-----------------------------
------------------------ mike--------------mike------------mike-----------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
main-----mon----------mon---------------mon------------mon--------main spkr

When we get on stage for an indoor gig we often don't have a place to put the monitor speakers on stage, so we set them up on chairs....one of these days we'll get real stands for them......the main speakers are mounted on adjustable stands.

All of the hookups for the sound system are routed to the snake reel at the rear of the stage.....we have a snake cable that feeds to the sound system....during practice I operate the sound system about 15 feet from the band on the left hand side...

The guitar players have no problem hearing themselves individually through their amps--guitar amps miked to PA--but for example guitar 1 wants to hear what guitar 2 is playing as often they cue off of each other. The bass player can't hear the other two guitar players. The vocals aren't so much important as to be able to hear the other musicians.

Thanks for all of your help....I willl get more specs on the equipment Sat.

Oh yes--our music is 60's 70 R&R covers--Beatles, Lynard Skynard, Doobie Bros--with a couple current hits and country songs thrown in...4 sets of pretty good stuff :)

Blackwater

That stage setup didn't come out right....will try later...

Here is a good site with very knowledgeable soundpeople. Many own their own sound companies. It is a very friendly site. I am sure they can help you. They are happy to answer questions.

Scotts PA Tutorial

Wes

I fixed the stage layout so it should read a little easier now...

Hi BW;

Nice sketch.

The first thing I would recommend is to put the guitar amps on the side facing the middle. You say that G1 can't hear G2, and so you send them through the monitors. If you turn them in toward each other, then you can take them out of the monitor mix, and remove G1's monitor speaker.

You didn't mention how you mic the drum kit, and whether any of those channels go into the monitor mix.

Last, how loud is it on stage? At some point, everyone's ears overload and no one can hear anything.

-Laz

Your biggest problem I believe is the basement itself. My band used to practice in a basement with slab concrete walls. We put up soundproofing.
We hung carpets from the ceiling, worked very well. Your monitors are probably bouncing off the walls and coming right back in the mics.

But also, it sounds like you are just playing too loud. Especially for practice. If guitar #1 can't hear guitar #2, then you are too loud. If you are mic'ing everything into the PA, then you want your stage volume as low as possible.

You said there is no room. Are these 15" monitors? If so, try 12". Much smaller. Also, why are the monitors so far away from the mics? I would place the monitor directly in front of the mic with the rear of the mic pointing at the woofer.

Another way to help eliminate feedback is a different mic. Many people use Shure SM57's. They are very directional so they don't pick up sounds coming from different directions like a SM58. This can help a lot.

And finally, try ringing out the monitors. Set your EQ flat. Place an open hand in front of the mics. Slowly turn up your amp until you hear the first traces of feedback. Find this frequency and cut it slightly on your EQ. Then slowly turn up the amp again until you hear feedback once again. Find this frequency and cut it as well. You don't want to do this more than 3-4 times or you just mess up your sound. But this will allow you to get the greatest volume without feedback. Once you reach this point, back volume off a little to allow yourself some headroom.

As far as space on the stage---

all of the little clubs we have played have TINY stages--great for maybe 3 member bands but awful for five-- by the time we get all of the drums, amps etc on stage (yes--one guitar player has 3 amps, another has two---mainly for the different sounds and warmth, then the bass amp so there are six large amps taking up valuable real estate), then put the band members up there there is NO ROOM for monitor speakers..... last year we had TWO lead singers, a male and a female, and while the music was GREAT everyone was practically sitting one each other's laps...six folks on stage was a bit much.

One thing we are going to explore this winter is coming up with a way of having all the amps off stage...we have seen this in various live performances....the guitar players control all of the amps from thier pedal boards so there is really no need to have them on stage....we're a bunch of old geezers and we don't have to worry about the "lookin cool" factor:)

Last night we saw a local group--four piece metal band--whose lead singer has his mike right up to his monitor...he was down on his hands and knees crooning to the audience---and not one tiny squeel. We had to leave though before their break so I didn't have a chance to chat with them about their sound.

We have practice this afternoon about 3 pm Mountain Time so I'm going ove about 2 pm and try some of the things you guys have helped me with...I'll definitely get a list of our equipment.

Thanks for your help and I'll let you know how it goes....

Blackwater

Well...we got some things cleared up , several big fights, and some more confusion.... :(

The drums are not miked....they don't need to be,,,,drummer plays REALLY loud and won't use pads or towels to dampen the sound...big fight over that.

The monitors have only the vocals going through them and are plenty loud...The Bass singer and lead singer's mike are Shure SM 58 and have no feedback problems except when our lead singer wanders a bit too close to her monitor.....

The guitar player's mike, on the other hand, is an AKG D880 and is the problem child..the mike is on a boom so it should be plenty away from the monitor, but it continually feeds back....to the point I had to turn the monitor speaker almost all the way down (then what's the point of having it??) Also with this particular mike you practically have to eat it to get the volume right..back away more than an inch or so and the gain reduces by about 2/3...and I think our guitar player gets a bit mike shy especially later on in the evening when he gets tired......I seriously considering replacing this mike.

Our other guitar player NEEDS to hear what the instruments are doing, (another big fight) so we're going to wire him an additional speaker coming off either the headset jack (then he'll get everything) or there are additional mono ports for camcorders, tape decks, etc.. or may get him a little earpiece monitor..he needs to have his cues from the other instruments...or maybe we can run a small speaker from the other guitar's setup....we'll really have to look into that. The real reason for all this is in case a musician messes up and skippes a verse--yeah we've had both musicians and vocalists get nervous and mess up--its easier for the musicians to jump in and fix the mistake.

The final problem is NOW we're get a low freq rumble feedback (like a 60 hertz hum only lower)....almost the freq as the bass drum..we couldn't isolate it as it seems to come and go...I couldn't hear it through the PA speakers.. so we're thinking it was a guitar amp...one song it was really apparent on was the Stones' Brown Sugar.

You asked about volume on stage.....I stood back on stage when the drummer sits and listened for a few songs....it was actually quiet except for the drums..the guitar amps are actually turned up just enough volume wise for each guitarist to hear themselves.....kinda nice cuz it does save the ears:) The vocalists comes through great on the monitor speakers...

So that's where we are......makes me wonder how a band like Rush with three members spread across a HUGE stage can hear each other....or if they just know their part for playing the same some for the past 20 years....

Blackwater

Well...we got some things cleared up , several big fights, and some more confusion.... :(

The drums are not miked....they don't need to be,,,,drummer plays REALLY loud and won't use pads or towels to dampen the sound...big fight over that.

The monitors have only the vocals going through them and are plenty loud...The Bass singer and lead singer's mike are Shure SM 58 and have no feedback problems except when our lead singer wanders a bit too close to her monitor.....

The guitar player's mike, on the other hand, is an AKG D880 and is the problem child..the mike is on a boom so it should be plenty away from the monitor, but it continually feeds back....to the point I had to turn the monitor speaker almost all the way down (then what's the point of having it??) Also with this particular mike you practically have to eat it to get the volume right..back away more than an inch or so and the gain reduces by about 2/3...and I think our guitar player gets a bit mike shy especially later on in the evening when he gets tired......I seriously considering replacing this mike.

Our other guitar player NEEDS to hear what the instruments are doing, (another big fight) so we're going to wire him an additional speaker coming off either the headset jack (then he'll get everything) or there are additional mono ports for camcorders, tape decks, etc.. or may get him a little earpiece monitor..he needs to have his cues from the other instruments...or maybe we can run a small speaker from the other guitar's setup....we'll really have to look into that. The real reason for all this is in case a musician messes up and skippes a verse--yeah we've had both musicians and vocalists get nervous and mess up--its easier for the musicians to jump in and fix the mistake.

The final problem is NOW we're get a low freq rumble feedback (like a 60 hertz hum only lower)....almost the freq as the bass drum..we couldn't isolate it as it seems to come and go...I couldn't hear it through the PA speakers.. so we're thinking it was a guitar amp...one song it was really apparent on was the Stones' Brown Sugar.

You asked about volume on stage.....I stood back on stage when the drummer sits and listened for a few songs....it was actually quiet except for the drums..the guitar amps are actually turned up just enough volume wise for each guitarist to hear themselves.....kinda nice cuz it does save the ears:) The vocalists comes through great on the monitor speakers...

So that's where we are......makes me wonder how a band like Rush with three members spread across a HUGE stage can hear each other....or if they just know their part for playing the same some for the past 20 years....

Blackwater

Blackwater

First, get rid of that AKG mic and get something like a SM57. That should take care of that.

This may sound blunt, but it sounds to me like your 2nd guitarist doesn't know his parts. Then when he makes obvious mistakes, everyone is frustrated and a big fight breaks out. Then he says he can't hear the other instruments. Sorry, sounds like an excuse to me. Go on stage sometime when they are playing and see if you can hear the other instruments.

I have played with multiple musicians many times. I have never had problems hearing the other musicians. It may not be loud, but I can hear them.

The band sounds like they are winging it. Everyone should know their parts. If you know your parts you don't need "cues". You can bet Rush does. They are pros.

If need be, write out each song for each member (or at least the ones who lose their way). You know, Intro, 1st Verse, Chorus, 2nd Verse, Chorus, Bridge, 3rd Verse, Chorus, Outro

I'm sorry, but it sounds like the band needs to practice more and get their songs down before they perform in front of an audience.

Yeah Wes...we're winging it, and the band will be the first to admit it.

Some history...we all got going about 3 years ago (we' re all in the 40+ age group, not alot of talent but LOTS of disposable income to spend on guitars and band stuff), hanging out in a friends basement jamming and putting together a few songs, having a great time, especially in the wintertime, gives ya something to do and gets ya away from the wife, that sort of thing. No one really took it very seriously because we all have good day jobs and hey--we always wanted to play the songs we heard growing up. So no real pressure to get songs down cold, only practiced one day a week as a group, and if someone went hunting or camping or had a birthday party etc (because we're all family people as well) we'd skip a week or two or three of practice..no big deal. We had other folks that would come to the basement and hang with us and say we were really good....we'd just nod "yeah right" and go right on plinking around...

Then someone out of the blue invited us to play at a birthday party for some background music. We thought "sure why not, we're not getting paid, no pressure, and it might be kinda fun."

Then the crap hit the fan....

The original lead singer who did Beatles and Stones songs so well was canned "because he didn't look cool on stage." Many of the old songs the guys had down cold were replaced by more modern stuff "that people knew" We continually looked for new lead singers but either found people who wanted to play out every night of the week because itwas their bread and butter, or college kids who would get bored after a month or two and quit--or just not show up anymore....so now most of the burden of the singing are on the bass and guitar players....

We just two months ago got a new girl lead singer who bless her heart has a wonderful voice and is learning songs quick...but also wants to throw in a few country songs she knows..so the band has to learn a few new songs..and they don't really fit well in the mix of songs we have..

Yes....MAJOR fights about people not learning their parts and not pulling their weight, not having music memorized, etc....I stay out of those fights...as I have all my sound system settings writted down in a book and I sure don't want someone expecting me to memorize my book.

The last couple of gigs we have done have been for charity fundraisers....since we don't need to get paid as a band we volunteer our time and talent....our upcoming outdoor gig in Sept is also for charity--a Veitnam Vets orgainization.

"gives ya something to do and gets ya away from the wife"

Wow Blackwater, you like to live dangerously. Don't you know they have a network? That will get back to her as sure as the sun rises tomorrow! :D

Well, the best thing to do is learn a bunch of easy 3-4 chord songs. Should be about 50,000 country songs like that. :wink:

Since you are the soundman, maybe you can be their manager too. Sounds like you are the only organized one in the bunch. Make a notebook for each player. Something simple with the lyrics with the chord changes over them.

That's a shame people are getting mad. Maybe with a little bit of organization on your part the band can play well and have fun again.

Let us know how your gig comes out.

Wes

Wel...we had another practice today and worked out some stuff....

the low rumble was the bass drum feeding back into the bass amp....seems like there was a little mike inside the drum that we THOUGHT was turned off....so much for thinking....disconnected it and the rumble went away...e don't need the bass drum miked anyway.

We now have both vocals and instruments going into monitor speakers and everyone is happy.....it may not be professional but people are HAPPY....no fighting (at least over THAT)....all the guitarists can hear everything..happy happy joy joy...

Fixed the AKG mike for the guitar 2.... according to the specs it needs to be held vertically like an ice cream cone and not mounted horizontally on the boom....made that MINOR little adjustment and all that feedback problem went away.....hhmmm something about reading the manuals that comes with your gear??? Although the guitar player was mad at first that I messed with his setup he was AMAZED at the difference...much better sounding and not as touchy with the sweet spot.

yes.... each musician has a book with their part in it.... everything spelled out in gruelling detail....but I can't force them to look at it or practice at home...

Thanks to everyone for their help...now the next couple of weeks we'll fine tune the rough areas.

Our gig is Sept 11....wish us luck...we'll need it :/ bad day in history.

BW