Our rockabilly trio, by definition, plays selections either from the 50s or songs structured on those same musical theories.
The drummer and I are both in our 50s, so our musical roots are in blues-based rock (the drummer's family has roots in swing!), which borrows from those same traditional song structures.
The bassist is in his mid-20s. His musical background references Lemmy, jam bands and Grunge. Hair Metal is as ancient as silent movies to him.
I seem to remember reading something about a shift in song writing during the 80s, where bands began moving away from blues-based stylings and in fact became the roots for a new movement in rock and the way songs were written.
My point is, during the solos (and during some of the verses), he gets stuck in a rut of simply thumping out a “walk†in whatever key the song is in; without regard to the actual chord changes in the song. We do “Rock This Town†and instead of following the chord changes, he sticks with doing a walk in the key of D almost the entire song. If we just played for one set, opening for someone else (or if it was just a song or two), no biggie. But by the time we get to the 3rd set at 12:15am, it really starts to sound tired.
He isn't a bad musician, it's like his “musical osmosis†has had no formative exposure to any roots music. When I say “That's an E Flat†he doesn't know what I mean, he just plays by neck position. This is also his first band, too.
Telling someone else how to play can be a touchy thing. And our band politics are scrambled; I keep pushing us to improve, which makes the bassist angry because he think we can do no wrong. The drummer will not commit: “I just wanna show up and playâ€.
The nice guy in me wants to just shut up and play, while the dictator inside wants to stop during rehearsals and take the attitude of “If you're gonna do it, do it right!†Being in a band is very demanding and I really want us to shine, but who am I to tell someone they're not playing right? Especially when they believe our “rough edges†set us apart?
Wow sounds like what I am going through with our band right now. Not particularly with the bass player but all of them in general.
I'm not sure what to do about it. I do stop and try to tell them we/they are playing something wrong but it feels a little uncomfortable telling someone how to play their instrument.
We are a bit different in that we are just a cover band so to me it should actually be easier...just listen to the recording and learn your parts, but for some reason it seems to be to hard for them.
They have the attitude that just showing up to play is committment enough and like you I want us to sound good, if we aren't tight I'd rather not even go out and play.
Lately I've been on the drummer a bit more, we've been playing a song by Robin Trower for awhile now and he never gets the beginning correct. It's kind of an odd rhthym that he ends up playing as a bunch of sixteenth notes. Then last night we were all supposed to have learned a Thin Lizzy song but he starts off all wrong, obviously he didn't listen to the song but he always "thinks" he knows them. So then we have to sit there and play the song during practice whihc is a waste of time.
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
Agreed. We are mostly covers, but are dabbling in some originals. I fought with them on that as well because I felt we needed to sharpen up our covers before we started following a conceit of doing our own stuff.
We have a St Pat's evening gig, and I'm having trouble getting enthused because we're doing the covers like I mentioned in my first post. I've been trying to spotlight the changes when I solo by focusing on certain notes and hope that the bassist picks it up - sometimes even playing the chords as part of the solo.
He isn't a bad musician...
From your description, I don't think I agree.
...When I say “That's an E Flat†he doesn't know what I mean, he just plays by neck position.
Sounds like you have no musical language in common. (I'm not even sure what it means to "play by neck position.") He doesn't follow chord changes during solos? It doesn't sound like he knows what chords are. This isn't about roots music vs. modern styles, it's about basic musicianship. If his time is good, if he locks in well with the drummer, he's halfway there as a bass player, but if he can't or won't follow the changes, & your band is approaching this in a professional or semi-professional way, I think you got a problem.
Telling someone else how to play can be a touchy thing.
Yeah. I'm primarily a bassist, and nobody tells me what or how to play -- but I know what an E flat is, and I know how & when to play one, so it's rarely been an issue. Your bass player thinks the band can do no wrong as it is, and that kind of confidence & enthusiasm is a great asset in some ways. That's hard to teach -- way harder to teach than how to change from D to G.
If ignoring the chord changes is what you mean by “rough edges,†if asking your bass player to play the d@mn chords to the d@mn song makes him angry... please tell me where you rehearse, 'cause I'd love to audition for his job. :twisted: On the other hand, if your audiences dig your act as it is -- if nobody's rolling their eyes & walking out -- you might have a chance to help him bring his musicianship up to speed, if you can muster the tact & take the time. Either way, it sounds like it's ruining your enjoyment of the band, so it shouldn't be ignored.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa
My problem is a bit touchier since all the other guys have been playing for years and I've only been playing for 6 years or so. It's hard for me to have to tell them what is right or wrong but most of the time I know I'm right but I feel awkward having to do it.
We also have a short gig in 2 weeks that I am losing enthusiasm about since we seem to be getting hung up on small stuff that never gets fixed.
I know I'm no where near the best musician out there but I do know that I know my parts and I can play them if the rest of them did that we'd be OK.
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
Can you record a practice, or gig? We've found that this is very helpful for self-correction (ooh, that was bad!). It also helps for harmonies.
Not sure about 3gtz but I 've done this but I don't need to go that far and record it to know it's wrong and all I have to do is turn on the CD and viola you can hear how it should be played.
The intro to Day of the Eagle is a perfect example. The rhythm is 2 eigth notes, 3 triplets, then 2 eighth notes and the guitar matches what the drummer is playing but the drummer has never played it correctly and it doesn't sound as tight as it should be. Maybe to someone just listening it would sound OK but if you know how it supposed to be played it doesn't sound right.
I brought that up to the drummer at the last practice and even wrote it out for him. When we went to play he still didn't have it right and the other guitar player tells him, "Just play it the way you were playing it"...that doesn't cut it in my book, unless of course you want to be a sloppy, we almost can play the song, cover band.
Now we are playing Jailbreak by Thin Lizzy, the solo is both guitar players playing the same notes in unison but if you don't play the notes correctly and with the same rhythm it's going to sound like crapola. The other guitar player plays most of the right notes but misses some and then we don't sound right at all and it sounds like we are off. To me it's important that we play the same thing so there is no confusion. I wouldn't have a problem with doing a different arrangement but if you do that we all have to be on the same page and work it out together so we know what the heck we are doing, if you just start playing "your" own version while the rest of the band is playing the actual song it ain't gonna work.
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
Cnev: Very familiar with both that Trower song and the Thin Lizzy. Hell, I cut my teeth on "Jailbreak" back in '76; no sweat.
Crow: Nobody is walking out or rolling their eyes. But it doesn't feel like we're exactly setting the night on fire, either.
I just know we would sound 100% tighter and punchier if the bassist would take just a little more time and effort to really learn the song as opposed to simply getting a feel for them.
We're based in an area where live music is just about dead. All anyone wants to do is hold down a bar stool and hook up. I suppose that affects my attitude. Saturday night, we're supposed to do a place that really loves having a band. I need to focus on getting ready for that and make assessments about future direction during our hiatus.
Enthusiasm and exuberance is a great asset, but you better be able to back it up with the real deal or you're only a paper tiger.
3gtz our old bass player was exactly like yours, he thought being close was good enough and he did the exact same thing when we played never really learned the real basslines to any songs and just did the same walk in the key we were in, well that's when he was actually in the right key.
The solo if you can call it that in Jailbreak is easy, Thin Lizzy did a bunch of harmony stuff with the guitars but not in this song it's the same line being played by both so we really need to be on it or it'll sound like crap. That's what gets me mad. if we were talking about crazy complex changes or rhythms I could see but this is pretty simple rock n roll it shouldn't be that difficult.
I have a feeling we are destined to be a, we almost know the song kind of band unless things change but it rarely does. You are right being in a band is demanding and it also requires you to work at it when you aren't actually at practice with the band if you want to be decent but it seems like everything else these days people want to find the easy way out.
There are still enough places that have live music in my area and there are some really, really good ones...we aren't even in the same league as them
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
Just play to your own capabilities...but ya gotta be serious about it. You'll get better and will end up finding better players...or, in reality...the better players will find you. Just keep it fun!
Cat
"Feel what you play...play what you feel!"
3gtz our old bass player was exactly like yours, he thought being close was good enough and he did the exact same thing when we played never really learned the real basslines to any songs and just did the same walk in the key we were in, well that's when he was actually in the right key.
My son doesn't always play the bass line exactly like the record. He says some of the parts are too simple or boring so he fixes them. :wink: :mrgreen: Heck, he often plays different versions of the bass part with the different verses of the song. Sometimes because the recording does it, sometimes because he feels it sounds betterthat way. Oh, my son is in his mid 20's by the way but had a proper musical eduaction growing up. I don't mean he had lessons (Well he did play in his high school jazz band so he had some) I mean he was exposed to good music. He is influenced by Geezer Butler, John Entwistle, Geddy Lee, Les Claypool and now is getting in to Billy Sheehan. He has a thing for Dave Elefson's stuff with Megadeth too. At it's simpelest, bass can be a percussion/rhythm instrument. At it's most complex it is another lead guitar. My son says, "There are bassists, there are bass players and there are bass guitarists". Some people make the mistake of wanting to play bass because it is easier. It's only got 4 strings right? If that is how anyone does feel by the way, go to Youtube and type in Billy Sheehan bass solo. :lol: We do Jailbreak as well. The solo/interlude sounds like one big instrument. Nice and tight!
"Work hard, rock hard, eat hard, sleep hard,
grow big, wear glasses if you need 'em."
-- The Webb Wilder Credo --
Well good thing I dont play with him...HA J/K. it all depends on the song and what you want to do as a band etc there is no one right answer.
I hear you on the part about some of the basslines being pretty simple and alot are but the bass in those situations isn't supposed to be the featured instrument and stand out it should be holding down a solid rhythm. There would be nothing wrong with adding something to it as long as it doesn't overpower the song or other parts.
I know I've posted about being a play the cover as is, kind of person, and at the heart of it I am, but I have no problem changing things but the minute you change parts it's a new "arrangement" and everyone needs to be on the same page otherwise it's just a bunch of people playing different things that doesn't always sound good.
I base most of my opinions on what I want to hear when I see a cover band and that is a true cover of the song. It rarely impresses me when someone tries to throw in something different in the song. Not saying it's always bad but more often than not it's not an improvement.
But that's only me and I know I might be in the minority.
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
The best cover bands play songs better than the originals!
I guess I might say that, if there were more of us filling up the sound, it could get lost in the mix. But since we are only a trio, all of us have to do our share of the lifting.
And I don't need him to play just like the record. The type of music we do is open for improv. But putting your fingers on autopilot is not improvisation.
Just got a picture message from him. From Target shopping for clothes.
@Cat: sound advice. Bar bands have a volatile shelf life. Not even The Beatles lasted forever.
Hmm Dan not sure I agree with that. What makes it better than the original? It sounds like what you are inferring is that they "add" something to the original.
99% of cover bands would be lucky if they could match the original let alone make it better.
But it's really all personal taste, it's what you like is the way you will perceive it there is no real way to quantify whether a cover is as good or better than the original it's all in the ears of the listener.
But I don't want to debate about it we all have different opinions and thats cool we should but at the end of the day the priority of the band needs to be that they are tight, not whether they can add some instrument or vocals or whatever, if they ain't tight then nothing else matters.
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
