Tuning: "in"...or "out"???

Isn't that where the "human" bit comes in? I mean, in between the mathematics???

Cat

Thanks all. This is a really interesting discussion for me.

Chris: Yeah, that's what I meant. Although e-temp is always "out" a little bit, it saves you from being out a lot more in various areas. Kind of a compromise. Like you said, if you're going to be playing open chords on an acoustic, it is probably fine, and maybe even better to tune for that use, but if you're tuning an instrument for best play anywhere on the neck, it seems that e-temp is the way to go, as that's the way the instrument was designed. I've only recently started tuning using the e-temp method, either via tuner or by one reference string instead of many, and I can't say I've noticed a huge difference in sound. What I have noticed is that it makes intonation adjustments a heck of a lot easier, as I found my old intonation was quite a bit off.

There is something to be said for "tune to whatever sounds right", but for me I guess there are differing degrees of "rightness".

As for the argument that this is too complex, and takes time away from playing, the discussion and math itself may be complex, but tuning by 1 reference string, or by a tuner isn't really any more complicated at all.

i'm guessing the answer is in the compromise created by using a set of parallel frets, perpendicular to all the strings that "cut up" each string into notes. because a guitar (well most every guitar) is built in this fashion, the same fretting ratios are used on each string.

Another version of this not standard fret arrangement is the Novax fanned fret guitar. I've never played one but only seen one played. I wouldn't mind giving one a try.

si do not know the error patterns of the e-temp tuning, but I doubt they repeat every four or five semi tones as must the specific tuning errors on a guitar with parallel frets. so to get the better approximation of e-temp tuning, it probably makes sense that each string is tuned a little "off" so that, for example, a note on two adjacent strings (four or five) semitones apart from one string to the next should have slightly different errors from "perfect" to approx some version of the e-temp scale. what a mess!

The Peterson strobe tuners have a "sweetened" tuning mode for guitar that does do something like this. They slightly modify the tunings on the strings to further reduce the errors in the (already error filled) equal temperament that are caused by the linear frets of a guitar. To my (admittedly novice) ear it does sound nicer.

There is something to be said for "tune to whatever sounds right", but for me I guess there are differing degrees of "rightness".

There are indeed. :D

There's another issue that affects tuning though, which I think is probably more important than whether you're a few cents off when you do your initial tuning. As you say, if you tune to an electronic tuner you get pretty close. But that's only the beginning. You still have to try and hold that balance of tune when you actually play. As soon as you start pressing strings, you stretch them a bit and pull them a tad out - or indeed several tads out. :wink:

My own playing could currently be charitably described as being "on the low side of mediocre". One of the big issues that I'm still working on is 'touch' - meaning not just where to land the fingers, but how hard to press. If I tune a string using the minumum required amount of force - so that the string rests against the fret wire enough to effectively shorten the string and produce the right note, then I get a specific pitch. If I then press down really hard, and floor the string all the way to the fretboard, and flatten it out a bit with the end of my fairly large fingers, that produces quite a different pitch - you can clearly hear the difference, even with a pretty ordinary ear.

So, it doesn't much matter how accurately the guitar was tuned, or how fancy the method, once the fingers are applied, the whole thing starts all over again. Beginners (well, me for one) have very inconsistent touch. One finger will be barely holding the string firmly against the fret, while another will be trying to push it straight through the neck, in an attempt to stop it all buzzing. This will make it sound out of tune, even if the guitar was accurately tuned before they began. Pros develop a much more consistent touch.

Yet a third element is added once you start strumming or picking. Try plugging your guitar into an electronic tuner and picking gently and evenly until the needle sits bang in the centre of the dial. Then try applying different amounts of force and speed - you can get the needle hopping all over the place. Again, beginners pick and strum less consistently than pros do.

When you look at all that's involved it really is no surprise that beginners and hobby players often sound more or less out of tune to pros. We don't have the ear, and we don't have the elegance of touch yet either. Fortunately, we can still enjoy it.... :mrgreen:

Chris

Good call. Technique affects tuning as well, and you're right, pushing on the strings will definitely give you a higher pitch than you're looking for. Also, action and nut height. If you have to push the strings too far to reach the frets, you can't tune correctly. I'm no pro either, but I find as I develop, small things about my guitars that are "out of whack" that never bothered me before, have me unscrewing things trying to find the problem :D

i'm guessing the answer is in the compromise created by using a set of parallel frets, perpendicular to all the strings that "cut up" each string into notes. because a guitar (well most every guitar) is built in this fashion, the same fretting ratios are used on each string.

Another version of this not standard fret arrangement is the Novax fanned fret guitar. I've never played one but only seen one played. I wouldn't mind giving one a try.

I believe the Novax is about ergonomics. even though not parallel, the frets are straight and fan in a way that positions the same ratios of length on every string, each of which has a different scale length. anything claimed about improved intonation? does it need a special tuner?

I was given a fretless guitar earlier in the summer. i've learned a few practical things about tuning as I learn to play it. first lesson: I absolutely must tune it with a tuner. string-to-string tuning on a fretless is nearly impossible, as it's too easy to make a very slight positional mistake or naturally compensate for slight errors -- which is okay except on open notes. I could use interval tuning by ear, but frankly am not good enough and am too lazy for doing this on 2-string courses (it's an eleven-stringer, only low E is single)

second lesson: It does have position markings as general guides, but like frets they are the same for every string (dots on the the edge of the neck). the best sounding scales are not played at those markings for every note. for a nice, sweet sounding "in-tune" scale, several of the notes must be shifted surprisingly far off the markings, as dead on the mark, they do not sound good. tells me a lot about the compromises of fret placement on a "normal" guitar, and how important using the right tuning must be to mitigate (but never quite eliminate) those more sour sounding notes.

si do not know the error patterns of the e-temp tuning, but I doubt they repeat every four or five semi tones as must the specific tuning errors on a guitar with parallel frets. so to get the better approximation of e-temp tuning, it probably makes sense that each string is tuned a little "off" so that, for example, a note on two adjacent strings (four or five) semitones apart from one string to the next should have slightly different errors from "perfect" to approx some version of the e-temp scale. what a mess!

The Peterson strobe tuners have a "sweetened" tuning mode for guitar that does do something like this. They slightly modify the tunings on the strings to further reduce the errors in the (already error filled) equal temperament that are caused by the linear frets of a guitar. To my (admittedly novice) ear it does sound nicer.

I have a Petterson, but mainly use it for intonation adjustments. I'll have to check out the other tuning mode(s).

A string, any string, goes sharper when it's vibrating through a wide range (as it does when you're playing louder, or right after it's picked), and goes flatter as the vibration dies down. That's simply because the string is stretched when it's swinging through a wide arc, just as it is when you bend a string. It's way more noticeable when the strings are slacker, as when you use lighter gauge strings tuned to the same pitch. So it is a very difficult thing to say that a string is tuned to a certain pitch. When using a tuner, you have to be consistent about when you're going to check the pitch, right after the pick attack, or after it's been vibrating a bit. (That will also vary with the tuner, as some sense the pitch much faster than others.) And you need to pluck the strings consistently, as you will when playing. The pitch of the notes will be sharper on average when you're playing fast, short notes than when you're playing long sustained ones. You won't notice pitch errors as much on the short ones. Gets to be really noticeable when you're holding notes, and that's one reason it sounds better if you're bending strings or using a slide and applying vibrato, to cancel or mask errors. Open strings ringing for a long time will really bring them out. One reason you may find it desirable to tune differently for different tunes, if you have a pitch-sensitive ear.

Another version of this not standard fret arrangement is the Novax fanned fret guitar. I've never played one but only seen one played. I wouldn't mind giving one a try.

I believe the Novax is about ergonomics. even though not parallel, the frets are straight and fan in a way that positions the same ratios of length on every string, each of which has a different scale length. anything claimed about improved intonation? does it need a special tuner?

After another look at the website I think that you are right that the fanning is not about intonation. It's ergonomic and it allows the bass strings to have a longer scale length for a claimed reduction in muddiness.
I was given a fretless guitar earlier in the summer. i've learned a few practical things about tuning as I learn to play it. first lesson: I absolutely must tune it with a tuner. string-to-string tuning on a fretless is nearly impossible, as it's too easy to make a very slight positional mistake or naturally compensate for slight errors -- which is okay except on open notes. I could use interval tuning by ear, but frankly am not good enough and am too lazy for doing this on 2-string courses (it's an eleven-stringer, only low E is single)

Hey, that sounds like the Godin Glissentar. How do you like it? What sort of music have you been playing on it? Using it for stuff you already know and play on a fretted guitar or things that you couldn't play with a fretted instrument?

A string, any string, goes sharper when it's vibrating through a wide range (as it does when you're playing louder, or right after it's picked), and goes flatter as the vibration dies down. That's simply because the string is stretched when it's swinging through a wide arc, just as it is when you bend a string. It's way more noticeable when the strings are slacker, as when you use lighter gauge strings tuned to the same pitch. So it is a very difficult thing to say that a string is tuned to a certain pitch. When using a tuner, you have to be consistent about when you're going to check the pitch, right after the pick attack, or after it's been vibrating a bit. (That will also vary with the tuner, as some sense the pitch much faster than others.) And you need to pluck the strings consistently, as you will when playing. The pitch of the notes will be sharper on average when you're playing fast, short notes than when you're playing long sustained ones. You won't notice pitch errors as much on the short ones. Gets to be really noticeable when you're holding notes, and that's one reason it sounds better if you're bending strings or using a slide and applying vibrato, to cancel or mask errors. Open strings ringing for a long time will really bring them out. One reason you may find it desirable to tune differently for different tunes, if you have a pitch-sensitive ear.

+1 on all of this, particularly the last point about tuning differently for different tunes (and as is implied, for different playing styles). one more thing we tend to forget is teaching the noobies how to use a tuner.

I absolutely must tune it with a tuner. string-to-string tuning on a fretless is nearly impossible, as it's too easy to make a very slight positional mistake or naturally compensate for slight errors -- which is okay except on open notes. I could use interval tuning by ear, but frankly am not good enough and am too lazy for doing this on 2-string courses (it's an eleven-stringer, only low E is single)
Same thing with a lap steel. No possibility for fretting the strings for relative tuning, and my ears aren't reliable enough for interval tuning. Harmonics would work, I suppose, when it's in a tuning where all the strings are tuned to a convenient harmonic of another open string. No issue of "mixed tuning" when there are no frets! I just use a tuner.

Hey, that sounds like the Godin Glissentar. How do you like it? What sort of music have you been playing on it? Using it for stuff you already know and play on a fretted guitar or things that you couldn't play with a fretted instrument?

yes, a Glissentar. I like it, but am still a bit limited in what I can do with it. I often play in groups, so I'm very much an essemble player, and usually do the flourishes, fills and solos. the Glissentar is a great way to add more flavor to this sort of playing. so far, it seems suited to adding Eastern, Celtic and Spanish flavor on the higher strings and a jazzy fretless baritone and African flavors on the lower strings. I need to work with it more to work it into more conventional music. it's also a passable substitute for a bass -- upper register bass, in some cases. lots of "mwa-a-aah" on the bass strings.

most of my playing has been single line, single with drone (Celtic-ish) and some intervals. haven't been satified with the chording yet.

Ok, at first I was reading line for line but resorted to skimming; still, I didn't see a concrete answer so maybe there isn't one to this. I tune with a tuner then fine-tune by ear and feel (someone mentioned notes "swimming"; if there is no or very little "swim" I'm thinking I'm in tune) then check the open sting against the 12th fret. So with that done, I try a couple chords and the swiming returns. Is this intonation or is it normal for chords to "swim"? :?

...fine-tune by ear and feel (someone mentioned notes "swimming"; if there is no or very little "swim" I'm thinking I'm in tune) then check the open sting against the 12th fret. So with that done, I try a couple chords and the swiming returns. Is this intonation or is it normal for chords to "swim"? :?

I thought this thread was deddern' a doornail! That was me...

IF you understand that MY method is suited to ME...you'll understand "what I mean by swim". Those set up to play the way I do will see what I mean. Others should save themselves the last five pages of angst and switch off.

I use thin strings on a perfect instrument. (.008's on an old Ibanez artist EQ) Caveat: even the slightest overbearance on the strings makes everything sharp...because it's trampolining each note sharp.

With that in mind...mathmatically it's TRUE that frets get progressively out of tune as you travel the neck. (Wavy frets are a hoot!) Anyway, it's a logarythm rather than simple addition responsible for this...or so I've been told. But being the bum that I am...I just let my ear sort the difference out. BUT! The thicker the strings you use and the heavier-of-hand you are...you lose the finest edge possible needed to be tuned good enough for even the gods to be happy with...let alone becoming adept on this instrument.

Use a digital tuner...get the six open notes. Then cross check them by 7th fret references. LISTEN! New light strings with a light touch should sound like a freakin' twelve string! And...like a twelve...the notes will "swim"...but NOT actually "beat"!

If you cannot tune your guitar like this...you have the distinction of being "able to outplay your guitar". (IE: Hendrix could outplay a Stratocaster, if ya get what I mean!) Hey...let's face it...it may be time to recognise that...geez...after decades you are ready to be the genius you thought that you always were! Get a precision instrument. Spend the money. Do it. Ultimately, you won't be able to blame a tuned guitar for much more than readily-broken strings...it'll be YOU! Every nuance your pick and fretting makes will be hangin' out just like the dog's proverbials!

Hope this helps...although my approach gets venom seething from most people. :wink:

Cat

Thanks Cat; as long as the search feature is enabled, a thread can never truly die.... neither will my hope for a precision instrument! :lol:

Really good discussion and explanations.

chris C - my brother in law has perfect pitch and it is both the most amazing and most irritating thing.

He will just listen to a song and shout out the chord changes as they come along, and not just your major and minor, he recognises 7ths, 9ths sus chords etc without even needing a guitar in his hand to check as he goes along. truely incredible.

I on the other hand am one of the people who cannot recognise if my own guitar is in tune or not without constantly checking on my tuner :(