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Chord theory question

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(@hanging-chord)
Estimable Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 87
Topic starter  

Looking through some resources on chord theory, I've seen it stated that you very rarely see an "add11" without also suspending the 3rd, since the 3rd and 4th/11th tones are a half-tone apart and playing them simultaneously is disharmonious (like fingernails on a chalkboard to my ears, anyway).

However, the maj7 is a fairly common chord, despite having the same issue (7th and 1st/8th tones), and sounding just as horrible to my ears as the 3rd/4th combination. In fact, it sounds so bad to me that I never play it, even when I see it marked; I either switch to the dominant 7th, or just play the straight major chord, and it always sounds much better to me.

Can anyone explain to me why the 3rd + 4th/11th combo is so rare, but the maj7 is so common, when they sound equally cacophonic?


   
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(@vic-lewis-vl)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 10264
 

Possibly because there are so many notes in an 11th chord - typically, it should be root - third - fifth - flat seventh - ninth - eleventh. However, in these stacked or extended chords, often a note or two can be done away with - you don't really need the third, unless it's a minor eleventh, where you'd need a flattened third, and you don't really need the ninth, as the eleventh's the top note.

Also possibly because you'll rarely get the disharmonious notes on adjacent strings, where you'd actually notice the discord more.

:D :D :D

Vic

"Sometimes the beauty of music can help us all find strength to deal with all the curves life can throw us." (D. Hodge.)


   
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(@noteboat)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 4921
 

If you must remove the third, it's not an "add11" chord... it's a "sus" chord. it's only an "add11" if the third is also present (it doesn't have to be in the voicing you play, but it could be in the voicing). "sus" chords by definition don't have a third.

If you're playing a full 11th chord, as Vic mentioned the formula is 1-3-5-b7-9-11. That's six notes, and you've only got six strings... so it comes down to what's practical to finger. You want to have all the 'critical' tones in the voicing, and those are:

- the 11th (because without it, it's not an 11th chord)
- the b7 (because 11th chords are dominant chord types)
- the root OR the fifth (to better establish the chord root in the progression)

Since most voicings are done with four different notes, your last note will be your choice of the root/fifth, 3rd, or 9th. Any of these works, but the ones most often included are the root/fifth or the 9th... because they're easier to include in the fingering, and they avoid the conflict.

Maj7 chords include the conflict because you can't drop either tone - if you drop the 7th, it isn't a 7th chord; if you drop the root, it's a minor triad (C-E-G-B turns into Em if you don't play the C).

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@fretsource)
Prominent Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 973
 

I'm surprised you find the major 7th offensive to your ears - to the extent that you don't play them at all. As Vic says, the dissonance will be very apparent if you have the root a half step above the 7th, (on adjacent strings) but all of the 'standard' shapes for the maj 7th the have the 7th above the root. Major 7ths have a character all of their own, and if you play just the major, you'll lose that essential flavour. I'm trying to imagine some songs that feature maj 7ths, such as Walk on By, Time (Pink Floyd) or Bowie's Space Oddity, without them. They'd lose a great deal of their charm, with just plain old majors instead. And using dom 7ths would just sound wrong because you're adding a note that shouldn't be there. Dom 7ths would change the mood of the song drastically - and certainly for the worse in the case of those songs I mentioned.
Give Major 7ths another chance - the sound will grow on you and you'll wonder how you ever managed without them. :D


   
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(@hanging-chord)
Estimable Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 87
Topic starter  

It may be a matter of my music ear needing "seasoning". When my ear hears a Maj7 chord, my brain interprets it as an out-of-tune or misplayed 4-note major. It definitely sounds worse if you play 7-8 rather than 1-7, but there is still some jarring that feels like someone accidentally flatted the root. Time and Space Oddity never appealed to me, perhaps because they sound weird to my ears in places; I think you just identified why that is.

Maybe it's like really hoppy beer -- some people love it, some hate the bitterness, some hate it at first but then grow into it. I still find it too bitter to really enjoy, but I no longer spit it out on first taste. I'm thinking that if I can manage to play these Maj7 chords without spitting them out, I'll eventually learn to tolerate and maybe even appreciate them. But it may be that I never truly love them.


   
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