Major Scale Pattern and CAGED from Fretboard Logic?

Well....

First off, ya got music - there's only one major scale pattern, one way to harmonize in thirds, etc.

Then ya got guitars. There are five notes (four on classicals) that match a piano's middle C. So you've got four or five scales you can build from C.

But... you can use any finger to start that scale from most of those notes. So in theory you've got 14-17 ways to play that major scale, depending on the gutar. Some are unworkable, but in practice you've really got about 11.

Eleven is a lot.

So to make things simpler, you pull out the patterns that are easiest to play. CAGED is built on the fact that you can only form five different open major chords, so all barre chords are related to barres of those forms.

But as you go up the neck, you're not in open position anymore. And you can do chord forms that dont match the open position fingerings... like this:

-8-
-6-
-5-
-7-
-x-
-x-

Those notes would be A-C-F-C, so it's an F major chord. But it's not one of the CAGED F chords:

-5-8--8-1-5-
-6-10-5-1-6-
-5-10-5-2-5-
-7-10-5-3-2-
-8-8--5-3-x-
-x-x--x-1-x-


So the real problem with any 'system' for the guitar is that by making things simple, you're eliminating possibilities.

If you're setting out to learn how to navigate the guitar, any system will do. CAGED uses five forms, Mel Bay's Rhythm system uses three, Johnny Smith's uses three (not the same 3 as Bay), etc. Anytime you're adding forms to the bag of tricks, you end up with more to learn, which makes it 'harder'.

But the thing is... it doesn't need to be harder. Recognize the forms for what they are: a crutch to use to help in learning the fingerboard. If you learn patterns, but spend time learning the NOTES that make up the scales and chords, by the time you get through learning about four or five patterns completely, you have a picture of where everything is on the neck.

Using that knowledge, you can spell a scale or chord and come up with any fingering you like - like the F chord I showed above. You can incorporate open strings, have a handle on voice leading, etc. You won't need to worry about learning more patterns, because you'll have learned the good stuff that underlies the patterns - how that one piano scale or chord can be done on the guitar, wherever you need it, whenever you want it. You get back to the simple music: one set of notes for a scale, one set of notes for a chord formula. You just choose how to realize it on the guitar.

Every teacher uses patterns, myself included. More should focus on WHY there's a pattern. Figure that out, and the patterns themselve become obsolete. They're like highway signs - the first time you drive a route, you read the signs. After that, you know how to get there, and you experiment with alternate routes.

My two cents worth, anyway.

Wow Tom. Great post.

This is right at the stage I am at right now, and I'm trying to figure out practical steps to overcome that gap between pattern dependence and improvising openly within the key.

In practical terms, how can I make that step? I'm been memorizing the fretboard, but I'm not getting the association with the keys, or on the other side of things, I can practice patterns in the key, but I can't figure out how to blend that and feel like I'm not following my boxes around when I play leads.

I don't think it helped that I'm a very visual guy, so I latched on to those patterns like a starving leech!

Help!

Almost every guitarist gets stuck in patterns. I know I did when I started to play - even though I read music from the very beginning, patterns were quick and easy when it came to improvising. I mean... I KNEW where the notes were in B, but ripping through a fingering pattern seemed 'easier' than remembering to look for the A# note.

For major scales, start with C - it's got no accidentals. Solo VERY slowly, and try to name the notes while you do it. Then move go G or F - one accidental. Focus on the name of the note that's different - go ahead and use the pattern if you must, but think "B Flat" or "F sharp" every time you get to one of those notes.

Try switching strings later than you normally would. If you'd do C-D on the sixth string, and E on the fifth... do CDE on the sixth (sliding on your fourth finger), THEN find the EFG, slide to A... then find B. Do whatever you can to start playing more vertically - using the notes of two patterns at once. Heck, solo on a single string, through the whole range of the neck. Then change to another string and do it again (this is also a good drill for getting your hands to find positions without looking - do it daily for a week, and you'll snap right into positions 5, 9, 12, etc.)

One thing I've done in recent years, although it's probably a little late for you, Undercat - is in teaching the pentatonic scale, I teach only four patterns. We start with the 1-4, 1-3, 1-3 etc box, and go 'back' two patterns and 'forward' one. That leaves the last pattern - the only one that requires a position shift - untaught.... but when I show how the known patterns start again in another three frets on the sixth string, it lets them visualize the 'gap' fingering in relation to the patterns on either side. Then I have them sliding up and down notes from the knows pattern into the 'gap' ... and the connectedness of the neck seems to start falling into place a little quicker. I don't actually show that fifth position anymore, but they're able to play with it anyway.

One of the real problems with a guitar, compared to horns, piano, etc., is that once you learn a patter, you simply move it on the fretboard and you're in another key.

This gives the impression that scales are "easy," and that once you know the pattern you know the scale.

That simply isn't true.

Personally, I don't think using patterns is viable until the student discovers that there are patterns. Then you can start sharing them. Once the student makes that discovery themselves, it means they've internalized the relationship between what they're playing musically and what they're doing on the fretboard.

Until that point, using patterns is frankly dangerous, because it encourages the student to turn their brain off.

No matter what key you're playing in, you should be able to stop at any point and say "ok, THIS note is a <internval value> in <key> which makes it a <note name>. And by teh way <key> has <number> <sharps/flats> and they are <list of sharps or flats> which are the <interval names of sharps and flats>."

If you use patterns, you will find that you're practicing scales for months, or even years, and you can't give that bit of simple, basic information about the scale. Which, in translation, means you've spent years practicing without learning anything.

Thanks for the reply, kingpatzer. What do you think is a good way to start doing scales, then?

Once my students know the notes in the first/open position, I start my students with the major scale in terms of intervals:

Whole Step - Whole Step - Half Step - Whole Step - Whole Step - Whole Step - Half Step

And I have them FIND the c-major scale.

Tell me the notes. Tell me the intervals.

Now we'll learn a few C-Major tunes. We'll play in c-major in open position for a couple of weeks to a month.

Now I'll show them the minor scale in terms of intervals:

Whole Step - Half Step - Whole Step - Whole Step - Half Step - Whole Step - Whole Step

Now I'll have them find A-minor in open position. This usually results in a huge level of confusion as to the difference between A-minor and C-major!

We'll keep building like that . . .discovering the scale in a key. Spending a few weeks on it. Learning the intervals, learning the note names, learning the relationship to other scales.

It takes a LOT longer. But the result is someone who totally owns a scale.

For someone who already knows the patterns, the trick is to replace that knowledge.

Play the scales SAYING the interval. Play the scales SAYING the note.

Play the scale in 3rds (1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 1) saying the names, saying the intervals.

Play in 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and 7ths.

Play the scales on 1 string, 2 strings, 3 strings, 4 strings etc. Play them up and down the fretboard as well as across the strings in a single position. Try to BREAK the patterns and find your own.

Make yourself THINK when you're practicing the scales. Avoid using muscle memory to get the job done. Force yourself to pay attention to what note your playing and WHY that note is the exact note (fret, string interval ) you want to be playing.

This may be one of the most basic of questions.... but how do you read the boxes of numbers you posted. I'm not starting playing until next week but I'm trying to learn as many basics as possible while I have to sit here in the office. Thanks a lot.

The numbers are called tab (short for tablature), a way of noting string and fret. Usually the thinnest string is shown on the top - so if you were to print a sheet of tab and hold it up in front of a right-handed fretboard so it 'read' along the neck, you'd see which frets to play on which strings.

There's an article here at Guitarnoise that explains how to read tab:
A Guide to Tab Notation B-by Howard Wright.

I hope this helps.

I thought that was but it's the first time I've see finger work on all 6 strings at the same time :shock: . Guess I have a lot to learn.