During the time I was taking lessons, understanding pentatonic scales were the devil for me. I could not get my head wrapped around them for love or money... why the different positions, how and when to use them, not to mention just remembering them, etc.
But having left them for a couple of months, since I'm more interested in learning good rhythm and chord changes, I think I finally got it. Well, I hope so anyway, because if I write all this and it's wrong I'm even more confused. :o
It's important to learn all 5 positions because if I understand correctly, they are different "voicings" of the same scale, much like a chord being played at different positions on the fretboard? Some people learn only one "box" shape, but that limits the voicing to that position only?
For example, to play Gm using the 1st pattern, you can only play that at the 3rd fret of the 6th string? If you move that pattern to the 5th fret, that's Am, or to the 7th fret that's Bm?
But if you play the 4th "box" pattern at the 10th fret, that is still Gm (the root G is on the 5th string 10th fret)? It's a different "voicing"?
Notice all the comments are in the form of a question. Do I gotz it right?
It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.
Yes, you are correct. You've answered your own question somewhat by stating that the root note G is on the 5th string 10th fret. What I mean is ...The root note of the scale determines what key you are playing in. In this case you've started the scale on the 3rd fret -6th string. (G) So yes, assuming you only played one pattern (the first one) and started on the 3rd fret, 6th string and then slid the same pattern up to the 5th fret, 6th string you would be moving the root note to A.
The patterns, or boxes, are "interlocked" if you will. The bottom half of the first pattern is actually the top half of the second pattern. See pic below.
This shows why , when you play the fourth pattern, you are still in G.
Taking each of those patterns, you'll see that the red note are the root notes (G)
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Whew! I finally got it! Thanks. :D
Btw, I have those diagrams too. I always understood the interlocking, I just never understood why you'd play the different patterns. Now I understand. I might even get back to playing with them. :mrgreen:
It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.
What new pentatonic (or any) scale soloist's don't often realize until much later: One can make "jumps" between those scale positions to insert larger intervals and somewhat get away from that somewhat trite pentatonic run sound/feel.
Another fun thing to try when you get comfortable with the pentatonic:
1. Play a short bit on the pent scale
2. Create a bit of musical tension: Play a short(er) bit OFF the pent scale (the notes "in between" -- maybe same note pattern as step one, but up or down a half step)
3. Resolve the musical tension: Play a short bit back on the pent scale, emphasizing the root
-=tension & release=-
What new pentatonic (or any) scale soloist's don't often realize until much later: One can make "jumps" between those scale positions to insert larger intervals and somewhat get away from that somewhat trite pentatonic run sound/feel.
Yes, now I understand that, as you predicted. It takes knowing where to start a box. I could run all 5 positions from the beginning, but if I had to start at the 3rd, I was totally lost.
Another fun thing to try when you get comfortable with the pentatonic:
1. Play a short bit on the pent scale
2. Create a bit of musical tension: Play a short(er) bit OFF the pent scale (the notes "in between" -- maybe same note pattern as step one, but up or down a half step)
3. Resolve the musical tension: Play a short bit back on the pent scale, emphasizing the root
Funny, those were some of the things I'd do with my teacher. Adding pulls, bends, hammers. He said that's the way a lot of jazz was improvised.
It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.
Another fun thing to try when you get comfortable with the pentatonic:
1. Play a short bit on the pent scale
2. Create a bit of musical tension: Play a short(er) bit OFF the pent scale (the notes "in between" -- maybe same note pattern as step one, but up or down a half step)
3. Resolve the musical tension: Play a short bit back on the pent scale, emphasizing the root
Funny, those were some of the things I'd do with my teacher. Adding pulls, bends, hammers. He said that's the way a lot of jazz was improvised.
Exactly. Tension and release is a staple of many musical styles, including jazz improv.
-=tension & release=-
I'm confused :(
I really just don't understand scales, it's something that I'm going to have to look into more rather than just chords.
Your explanation and diagram helped a bit, but wow, theory is just something that I've never really grasped.
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Music theory is the grammar of music. It is not a set of rules, cast in stone, it is the combined wisdom of musicians, as to what works well (i.e. pleasing to the ear) and what doesn't.
Blues, for example, regularly ignores "conventional" wisdom and throws in a "blue note" (usually a flattened 5th / raised 4th) to deliberately create an effect, that the standard scale won't give you - a "blueness" (sadness, melancholy) created by the dissonance of the raised 4th/lowered 5th.
I would strongly suggest that you get yourself a good theory book - Noteboat's book is written specifically for the guitarist. It will help you understand how, for example, pentatonics work.
I would also suggest that you learn at least enough theory to break you out of the "box" mentality. The box patterns are great to learn on, but soon run out of steam in the improvisation department. I only finally got rid of box thinking, after I bought the Rosetta Stone of Guitar. Whilst he teaches patterns, they have a different way of looking at the patterns. It means that, if you can identify a particular note and relate that note to the scale, you can, immediately, start playing, from that point. You are able to play scales both horizontally as well as vertically.
I believe that Planetalk has a similar method, but with a different emphasis.
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Thanks, I may have to pick that book up!
It's something that I've struggled to learn from alot of different sites, but never really grasped.
Like your 4th and 5ths, I kind of know what you are talking about....but don't really grasp the understanding of it.
In Space, no one can hear me sing!
Do I gotz it right?
New Joisey??? What exit?
Yeah, it's pretty right. I most often find it handy to delineate "boxes" and dedicate harmony vocals and the top voices after a bit of fooling around with "what goes better, where".
(Speaking of inverted "dropped" chords!)
Have fun!
Cat
"Feel what you play...play what you feel!"
Do I gotz it right?
New Joisey??? What exit?
102 :lol:
Yeah, it's pretty right. I most often find it handy to delineate "boxes" and dedicate harmony vocals and the top voices after a bit of fooling around with "what goes better, where".
(Speaking of inverted "dropped" chords!)
Have fun!
Cat
Thanks. :)
It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.
Melodies are constructed from scale fragments, pentatonic, blues, major, and all 3 variations of the minor scale (you can add modes to if you want to get more advanced).
Not that melodies are scales, any more than sentences that you speak are a collection of phrases comprised of dictionary words. But as sentences are built of phrases of those words, melodies are made of scales built out of the notes on your instrument. Of course, this is a bit simplistic, but it is generally true (you can add arpeggios and ornaments to the melodies).
The problem with guitar is that it is easier to play without knowing music theory than many other instruments. Another problem is that it is more difficult to read music on the guitar than many other instruments. So many guitarists learn to play without either learning music theory or how to read. Big mistake. It's like trying to learn your native language without either learning how to read or the rules of grammar (theory). You can get buy, but not all that well.
IMO Every musician (guitarist, saxophonist, vocalist, bassist, percussionist, pianist, etc.), I repeat every musician should learn at least basic music theory and how to read music on their instrument. Period.
If you don't you will put yourself at a disadvantage. Not that theory and technique are the entire formula. You do need your own talent and experience, but theory and technique will help you "say" what you want to say easier than you can "say" it without those tools.
True, there have been great musicians who don't read music, and some that played entirely by ear without formal theory training. But these people are the exceptions to the "rule".
So learn your theory, there are plenty of books to learn from. Learn to read, it seems hard at first, but it gets easy after you learn (remember how difficult spelling C-A-T and H-O-U-S-E were when you were a little tot?).
Learn your scales in all the positions. Listen to them as you play them. Play them every time you have a practice session. Sooner or later the ear and the fingers will connect so that you no longer have to think of the notes in the scale, you will hear a melody in your head and be able to play it. Just as you no longer think about how to spell the words when you talk.
You will be a better musician in the long run if you do.
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Do I gotz it right?
New Joisey??? What exit?
102 :lol:
GSPW
-=tension & release=-
GSPW
Yes sir. 8)
It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.
I would also suggest that you learn at least enough theory to break you out of the "box" mentality. The box patterns are great to learn on, but soon run out of steam in the improvisation department. I only finally got rid of box thinking, after I bought the Rosetta Stone of Guitar. Whilst he teaches patterns, they have a different way of looking at the patterns. It means that, if you can identify a particular note and relate that note to the scale, you can, immediately, start playing, from that point. You are able to play scales both horizontally as well as vertically.
Great post, greybeard.
I learned the minor pentatonic based on a big long run in a lesson I found somewhere. It was a descending phrase that covered 3 octaves if I remember right, all minor pent intervals. So breaking out of the box/es rang clear to me straightaway. Every time I see these discrete little pattern boxes, it kind of throws me. They may be a great way to get started but they also seem to imply, 'Either play it here or play it here', vertically, which isn't really the point. You don't want to play a scale; you want to play music.
Wes Inman has any number of great posts re. real world playing/scale use. Here's a nice one centred on a pentatonic scale:
I am guessing you are asking about lead guitar more than playing rhythm guitar. And you also sound like you already know and have been practicing pentatonic scale patterns or "boxes" on the guitar. Pentatonic scales patterns are "user friendly" patterns. They are set up to be easy to play physically. You can stay at one fret on the guitar and play across the neck with an available finger at each fret. And they work very well. Some players can play remarkable solos in just one position, Eric Clapton is amazing at doing this. Listen to the great solo for After Midnight. This is pretty much played in position 1 only.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mSMETRoOs0
But many players like to move from one position to another. They do this for several reasons. You can alter the mood of the song by playing higher or lower notes on the guitar. At the peak of a solo, a player will often play very high on the guitar and often very fast too. Then they might dive down to the low notes. It is all about the mood or feel you want to produce. But players also move through the positions because it is even easier than the pentatonic scale positions. You can often play solos without even needing your pinky. Eric Clapton is famous for not using his pinky. Hendrix barely used the pinky either. Blues and Rock styles especially use lots of bends, and most players like to use their ring finger for that. By moving through the boxes they can do most of their solo with the index and ring fingers which most feel are the strongest.
Am Pnt5 AmPnt1 AmPnt1 Am Pnt2
~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~
E-------------------------------------------------
B--------------------------------------8i-10r-----
G-----------------------------5i-7m/9m------------
D--------------5i-7--------7r---------------------
A-----3i-5r/7r------------------------------------
E--5r---------------------------------------------
1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4
/=slide up
AmPnt1= A minor pentatonic scale position 1
i=index
m=middle
r=ring
~~~= vibrato
This is the same lick played twice, first low, then higher. You will hear players do this, play the same exact lick, just higher or lower on the guitar, it's a good and interesting trick.
But finally, to answer your question, a great technique is simply slide from one position to another
Don
