In search of tone

so you have an EQ and aren't able to get what you want. try moving it in your line-up -- obviously before the Guv'nor is the first place. in the amp EX loop (if it has one) is another place to try.

I usually do not recommend pup replacements (don't do as I do …), but I really wonder if you wouldn't be a good candidate for a switch to a P90 pup -- a much darker, more powerful single coil that is fuller than what Fender offers. a P90 is nearly as powerful as a humbucker, but with more bite and edge than a 'buckers. a P90 covers a lot of styles really well. for your epi, I would recommend replacing the neck pup with a P90 in a humbucker size:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/electric/specialized/progressive/sph901_phat_cat/

(Guitar Fetish will offer something along this line that would be less expensive than SD.)

or even better, Duncan's new P-Rails:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/electric/humbucker/progressive/prails_shpr1/

(this one is still unique to SD.)

Chris, that is a difficult path. As you know there are so many variables. Perhaps the trouble is in the strings. Or you need to check another distortion pedals, they can make the difference with the amp.

Sometimes the simpler set up is very difficult to achieve because you search a pure tone.

greg - very interesting. I like those and those P rails sound like they'd really give me some sonic choices. I know a year or so ago there was a post on pickup positions and which ones people liked to use and I had mentioned that I pretty much only use the bridge pickup exclusively.

I know some people mentioned that I should explore the neck pickup more but to me it always sounded like it was muffled. That was using my Strat, but I have to say now that I bought the LP I have definitely found an appreciation for the neck pickup at least it this guitar. Still might lean toward the bridge but I really do like the sound of the neck pickup.

Unfortunately it really doesn't help my problem with the muddy sounding low strings.

What I think I will do because in the end it will be easier maybe than trying to tweak all my pedals etc. is when we practice next I'm going to plug my guitar into the other guitar players rig. He always gets a good tone out of his setup (he has alot more pedals not that it should matter) and if I plug it in to his rig and don't get that muddy sound at least I can rule out the guitar. I may not be able to recreate the tone with my gear but at least I'll have smething to work with and if it doesn't sound good I need to focus on the guitar.

Nuno - You don't know how difficult this quest for tone has been. I have never ever, really liked the tone I get from my guitars. I mean it's not horrible (well sometimes it has been) but it's just not what I'm looking for.

Yeah! When I was more focused on guitars, I also got stuck with my tone. I checked many, many guitars with different pickups configurations, wooden, different pedals (some of them were "boutique pedals"), amps, etc. I remember I was always listening the different tones of guitar players and reading about the techniques and gear that they used.

I guess it is a kind of "perfectionism". I mean, some of my friends do not care about his tone, they just play. However, others also are always trying to improve it (improve it or get closer to tone that they hear in his head).

A Fulltone OCD and a small tube amp solved my problems with the tone.

Have you tried putting a treble booster in your line-up?

grey - No but I have tried boosting the treble and lowering the low end frequencies with the Eq. I guess there was a moderate decrease in the muddiness but not enough. I'm a bit hesitant to buy another pedal since it will difficult to duplicate my setup at a store, but like I mentioned the other guitar player already has a bunch of pedals,including a treble boost so the easiest thing now is to just plug my guitar into his setup and see what it sounds like.

He gets a great tone so if my guitar still sounds like crap I'll focus more on the guitar but if it cleans up the sound I'll have to try and figure out exactly what I need to put in my lineup.

Nuno - I do have a tube amp I'm using a Fender Deluxe I think it's 40W, but I don't have an OCD pedal to try. I have thougth about strings and when I was stressing over the acoustic sound of the guitar I was ready to change them but never did.

simple adjustments to try for low string attack and clarity

* raise the action a bit on the bass side
* lower the pup(s) a bit
* go to slightly larger gauges on the lower two or three strings. even a modest increase in tension will clean up bass and make it more snappy.

Everything said thus far about the strings, pickup and guitar has been good sound advice. 8)

I have worked with a considerable number of Epi's, including the LP's, ES-335's and the Sheraton to dial in the tone that their players wanted. I added various aftermarket or Gibson pickups. '57 Classics and anything stronger were still muddy with the Fender 40W tube amps, and Alnico II's (Seymour Duncan again) are usually bright and sweet. Sometimes, open pickups without a metal cover, and Ceramic 496R and 500T's fixed their problem (a bit unusual), depending on taste.

We can also turn the Neck/Rhythm pickup around in reverse to place the screw coil into the 'sweet spot' as Lindsey Buckingham did, and rotate the slug coil up to the neck. That mod won't cost a cent. :lol: Man, I love this deal. :wink:

Here is a quote from Lindsey, but I am referring to his famous Les Paul with the flipped pickup, and not so much to his custom made Rick Turner guitar(s) with special rotating pickup, over the historical course of his career. Question: "I've noticed you sometimes rotate the pickup on your Turner so that the bass side is closer to the bridge." Answer: "That's the sweet spot for me. It delivers a little more definition on the low end-which helps me cut through the band-and having the treble side of the pickup closer to the neck sweetens the top strings." From: http://www.fleetwoodmac-uk.com/articles/FMart110.html

The Fender Hot Rod Deluxe amps are too dirty or "off" in their clean or natural sound, adding distortion from their factory-onboard Hot Rod Groove Tubes to do justice to any Strat, or the Les Paul type guitars IMO. Those amps really add the mud without an attenuator or power brake :shock: , and are often too loud and distorted, when you are trying to keep it pure and "clean".

IMO, the Groove tubes should go, or be removed, and we can try to substitute more normal tubes. The Blues Deluxe 40W which shares the same chassis and workings, doesn't have Groove Tubes, but I put them in to the preamp section of one of mine as an experiment, and that added a type of attack, bite and snarl that could be characterized as dirty.

If a Hot Rod Deluxe (or 60W DeVille) user is not satisfied with their tone on more than one guitar, I recommend getting the Torres bias kit, which is simply installed, and going with milder more manageable tubes, for either the true sparkle of single coils, or a bit more creamy smoothness or note bloom, and all that jazz on humbuckers, while blow-your-mind tones are still available at the turn of a few knobs. :D

bluejay - Now you really have me thinking. The possibilities are endless. Good stuff thanks for the post.

From what you have posted about the Fender Deluxe I'd have to say that's my experience also. I haven't really liked the sound I get from the Strat or LP so you may be on to something there.

We can also turn the Neck/Rhythm pickup around in reverse to place the screw coil into the 'sweet spot' as Lindsey Buckingham did, and rotate the slug coil up to the neck. That mod won't cost a cent. :lol: Man, I love this deal. :wink:

Here is a quote from Lindsey, but I am referring to his famous Les Paul with the flipped pickup, and not so much to his custom made Rick Turner guitar(s) with special rotating pickup, over the historical course of his career. Question: "I've noticed you sometimes rotate the pickup on your Turner so that the bass side is closer to the bridge." Answer: "That's the sweet spot for me. It delivers a little more definition on the low end-which helps me cut through the band-and having the treble side of the pickup closer to the neck sweetens the top strings." From: http://www.fleetwoodmac-uk.com/articles/FMart110.html

Unless the adjustable pole pieces are moved a LOT closer or further from the strings than the fixed pole pieces of the other coil, rotating a humbucker a complete 180 degrees should have little to no effect … unless the 'buckers magnetic circuit is damaged. LB's angling of the Turner guitar pup is a different case, as it actually moves and changes the shape of the pup sampling window.