A moment of zen

I agree.

So, I'm practicing my scales and tossing some chords in now and again, and it dawns on me . ..

"modes" are just not the right way to think about things.

Amen.Let 'em lynch me,too.

in my view, the point of practice to be able to get good enough to play the notes i'm thinking of.
so that begs the question, does anybody think in modes or scales?

I find it far easier to think in terms of chords and the scales that relate to that chord than to think in modes. Hence my zen moment, when it just dawned on me that I don't need to think in modes if I know the harmony and where the melody is in relation to the harmony.

I was exposed to modes twice about 10 years apart. The first time they made NO sense at all. Later, after playing blues and pentatonic scales for years, I was reintroduced to modes, and decided to study Tom Kolb's material. He has a good books under Hal Leonard, and a good video on modes with useful examples.

After studying Tom's material, I spent a few months using modes as a way to enhance my melodic playing (playing modes over chords in the harmonic scale), but more interestingly as a way of adding color to the already familiar major and minor scales I already used to excess. This is still how I think of them.

Thanks to Tom's teaching style and solid examples, my playing is a lot more well-rounded and open. I'm past thinking in terms of shapes, and now have developed some decent phrasing that I can call on.

After studying Tom's material, I spent a few months using modes as a way to enhance my melodic playing (playing modes over chords in the harmonic scale), but more interestingly as a way of adding color to the already familiar major and minor scales I already used to excess. This is still how I think of them.

Do you mean like how let's say a minor chord can have a whole bunch of different scales that work over it and like using say the same chord grip but grabbing all the different color tones or non chord tones from the various scales as decorations to your chord grip? So like chord tones plus whatever non chord tones for color? Is that kind of what you're driving at?

thanks~

Thanks to Tom's teaching style and solid examples, my playing is a lot more well-rounded and open. I'm past thinking in terms of shapes, and now have developed some decent phrasing that I can call on.

When I talk in terms of scales, I'm not thinking in terms of shapes.

I know the fingering patterns for position playing scales, but I don't use them or practice that way. I definitely think of scales in terms of scale degrees and the musical relationship between notes.

In terms of playing them, I do everything I can to mix up my scales practice -- play them all on one string, two stings, three strings, etc., jump intervals within the scale, play every place on the fretboard the tonic appears, then every place the second appears, etc. etc. etc.

And in that respect I practice "modes" as well -- I can start on a 3rd and end on a 3rd, for example.

But modes just seem to me anymore to be a convinient "cheat" to get to chromatic playing without having to worry about how things actually sound. I'ver been working through Liebman's A Chromatic Approach to Jazz Harmony and Melody and I just don't see ever really going back to modal playing. Maybe in 10 years I will, but right now I don't see it.

I've also picked up a book on chromatic melody that Noatboat recommended, but I've been so caught up in Liebman's book and Steinel's Building a Jazz Vocabulary that I haven't had time to even open it yet.

Do you mean like how let's say a minor chord can have a whole bunch of different scales that work over it and like using say the same chord grip but grabbing all the different color tones or non chord tones from the various scales as decorations to your chord grip? So like chord tones plus whatever non chord tones for color? Is that kind of what you're driving at?

To use a couple of Tom's examples: a couple of common Mixolydian melodies would be "Broadway" as played by George Benson or "Traffic Jam" as per Jeff Beck. Mixolydian is heard the same as a major scale, but the 7th is a minor 7th instead of a major 7th, which adds tension while ascending, and stronger momentum during descending runs.

In Dorian mode, a favorite of Carlos Santana and a host of other rock/fusion improvisors, the scales is heard the same as a minor scale except the major 6th is substituted for the minor 6th. The effect depending on the chord progression going on can a suspending effect.

Of course seasoned jazz players have probably moved beyond a strict use of modes to get into pure phrasing based on chromatic or bebop scale structures, but in my opinion, learning the modes is a great way for aspiring rock and fusion players to extend and animate their use of already familiar major and minor scales.

I see.Thanks cp.

Sounds like a good author.
pure phrasing based on chromatic or bebop scale structuresSounds good.I think I get what is meant here by "pure phrasing."
i.e. using ALL the colors :wink:
It's sorta like the difference between going from black-and-white tv to color tv.

It's sorta like the difference between going from black-and-white tv to color tv.

And once you do, you wonder how you ever lived without it.

It isn't a small change .. face it .. if you stick to the diatonic notes you're only using 2/3rd of the notes on the guitar. By going chromatic, the world is just so much bigger.

At the same time, you really do loose a lot of the safety net that is diatonic phrasing. Once you make the move, you gain the ability to do really great and really terrible things.

At the same time, you really do loose a lot of the safety net that is diatonic phrasing. Once you make the move, you gain the ability to do really great and really terrible things.

You gain a sense of freedom (or chaos in the wrong hands I suppose).But I think that is what cp meant by "pure phrasing"...meaning in the right hands it's beautiful.And I believe cp was suggesting using the modes to achieve a sort of "structured" chaos to achieve more of a sense of freedom while still maintaining some sense of structure.
Of course seasoned jazz players have probably moved beyond a strict use of modes to get into pure phrasing based on chromatic or bebop scale structures,

but in my opinion, learning the modes is a great way for aspiring rock and fusion players to extend and animate their use of already familiar major and minor scales.

So I guess he means to use modes to paint outside the lines of the major and minor scales in a controlled way rather than just goin for it willy-nilly.Sort of as an intro to chromaticism or as chromatic training-wheels.

And once you do, you wonder how you ever lived without it.

Yeah I'm really starting to feel that way about it.