are modal interchange different with pitch axis?

I guess this thread is considered "hi-jacked" by now, but interesting nonetheless!

I have a question for both of you! Are you both saying that a dominant chord can't set up a modal harmony? So let's say if "So What" would start with one bar A7 before the sixteen bars Dm7?

If so there are many compositions that would get very complicated when analysed like Piazzolla's "Milonga del Angel" for example which starts of with two chords (Bm7 and some kind of #IV4/3 in Bm) in shorthand:

Bm7 - Db7/B - Bm7 - Db7/B (and so on...)

Probably you were not saying that but just in case... :lol:

No, I'm not saying they can't start with or include a dominant, just that they usually don't.

Since chords tend to lead to chords with roots a fifth lower, and since the authentic cadence is a well established sound, we associate it with key. The presence of V-I or V-i leads the ear to expect the key of I/i, establishing a tonal center for the harmony.

So if the tune was modal, you could have conflicting tonal centers - in the tune "So What", the A7->Dm7 would establish D as a tonal center, matching the Dorian root, but it would also introduce C#, which would weaken the modal quality a bit. What I mean, though, is that including the naturally occuring dominant - G7 in the case of "So What" - establishes a conflicting tonal center; you'd now have C as the basis of the harmony, but D for the melody.

You can include dominant chords with modal melodies, but they introduce new challenges, so many composers avoid them.

Wow, today is a good day! I almost understood that!

Ok, given the exchange of posts since this initial thought on my part, I'm ready to retract this statement.

Now, where is my bottle of Tylenol? *rummages through desk*

hello..thx for the reply,noteboat...very helpfull but i'm still confuse...sorry to bothering you...i dont have a teacher who can explain me this so i'm counting on your answers...
just wanna ask you this :
1) If the melody note is the third (E), you're more limited. Am types will still work, but the Cm or Ebmaj7 will now conflict with the melody

Does the tone of the borrowed chord always need to contain the melody note at the time? How about blues? I mean we can sing or play minor pentatonic but the chords are dominant ( contain major 3th )

2) Your keynote of C, harmonized to Cm. That doesn't define the scale all by itself -you get the same root chord in C Dorian, C Phrygian, or C Aeolian (natural minor) in addition to the harmonic minor scale that serves as the song's melody.

I'm quiet confuse about the bold statement …if I use modal.interchange like your example: Cm F7 G7-5,
i think the Harmonic Minor won't be the only one that serve as the song's melody again, but it should also contain the Dorian and the Phrygian scales, am I right? Does it depend on the structure also?

3) Are blues progression n melodies in the same concept as modal interchange n parallel scale idea?

4) There are really two common uses for substitutions. First: reharmonizing a tune to get a variation. The key here is 're-harmonization'. What you end up with should harmonize the melody line, and if it does, there's no problem. The second use is to provide ideas for an improvisational soloist. That isn't typical of work with vocalists (outside scat), so if that's the mindset you have with your subs, you'll probably run into a problem or two.

Would you explain more about this concept?

5) So, what pitch axis uses for?

Sorry for asking too much.. i'm confuse about theory..oh ya, sorry for my bad english..hope you understand my question.. thx u very much
:)

1) One characteristic of blues is exploiting differences between b3 notes in the melody and natural 3 notes in the chords, that's true. But your melody won't consist of just chord thirds - and you won't change chords with every new melody note. So what I'm really saying is you harmonize the important melody notes. Look at something like "Before You Accuse Me"... these are the verse melody notes the first time each chord is presented:

Chord: E7 Melody: C#-D-E
Chord: A7 Melody: D-E-F#-C#-E
Chord: B7 Meldoy: F#-D-B

The melody for E7 contains chord tones (b7, R) except for the first note - which is slurred from C# to D, bringing the note up to a chord tone.

The melody for A7 contains chord tones (5, 3) and non-chord tones (4, 6). But the last non chord tone, E, also serves to signal the next chord, which is E7.

The melody for the B7 contains chord tones (5, R) and a non-chord tone (b3)

2) I'm not quite sure I understand... if you have G7b5, you have a Db note in the chord. If you're looking for one scale that mates with the whole Cm-F7-Gm7b5, Dorian won't do it - C Dorian has a D natural.

Since a chord has just a few notes, 3 or 4 here, and a scale has more notes, you can almost think of a chord as a scale with missing notes. Since the missing notes aren't in the chord, they can come in any flavor you want, and it'll still work over the chord.

But the more chords you want to include, the fewer scales are going to work. If you want to use a single scale over Cm-F-G7b5, the chords contain notes C-Db-Eb-F-G-A-B; since that's seven tones, you've already defined the diatonic set that works - since it's not one of our basic scales, there are several ways you could name it.

3) I guess you could see a typical blues as a modal interchange. In traditional blues, you have a melody over I or I7, and then the same melody over IV or IV7.

4) Re-harmonization is simply coming up with a new chord progression that fits the melody. Since melody notes can be harmonized in a lot of different ways, playing a C chord over C gives you a different feeling than playing an F#m7b5 chord over C - but in both cases C is a chord tone. The possibilities are practically endless.

5) In the sense of composition, pitch axis allows you to create variations with symmetry. In the sense of Satriani's use, it allows you to broaden your thinking to include parallel scales in a solo.