Circle of Fifths

Yeah, that's a lot of questions in one post :)

1. Yes, they're "dominant" 7ths. And yes, they use a note that's a half step lower than the major seventh. Here's why: every scale degree has a technical name... and one of them (the fifth note) is the "dominant". If you're in the key of C, that would be G.

Now if you build a seventh chord starting from the dominant, but you use ONLY notes in the key of C, you get G-B-D-F. If you compare that to the key of G, the formula would be 1-3-5-b7. And since the dominant scale tone is the ONLY one that ends up with that pattern, we call it the "dominant seventh" chord.

2. The circle of fifths. If you start from the key of C, the fifth note is G. And the key of G has one sharp - all the F notes are sharp.

Now if you start with G, the fifth note is D. And if you're in the key of D, you get two sharps... F and C.

Start from D, the fifth note is A. The key of A has three sharps.

And so on. Once you get to F# (six sharps), the fifth note is C# - right here is where we switch off to flats. F# is enharmonic to Gb, and the fifth note in Gb is Db... which is enharmonic to C#.

So we can write out the whole circle: C-G-D-A-E-B-F#/Gb-Db-Ab-Eb-Bb-F-C.

It's got a lot of uses in music theory (especially applied theory), but in a nutshell that's what it is... how the scales overlap and relate to each other.

3. Ninth chords. Ninth chords are seventh chords with the ninth scale degree added. A dominant 9th is 1-3-5-b7-9. a major 9th is 1-3-5-7-9. a minor 9th is 1-b3-5-b7-9, and so on.

4. In classical theory, a suspension is an event - a note that's held over during a chord change, and resolves later. For example, you might have a chord change from F to C.... F-A-C to C-E-G. The F moves down to E, and the A moves down to G.

But if you move the notes one by one, you might get F-A-C to F-G-C to E-G-C. The F is "suspended". Classical theory uses a lot of labels for things, and it's only a 'suspension' if it resolves DOWN to a chord tone (if it resolves up, it's a 'retardation'). Anyway, in the early days of jazz people wanted to put a label on that in-between sound - classical theory doesn't consider it a chord... it's more like a slow transition between two chords. So it ended up being called a 'suspended' chord.

And yeah, you've got the basics of thirds down.

Yeah, that's a lot of questions in one post :)

1. Yes, they're "dominant" 7ths. And yes, they use a note that's a half step lower than the major seventh. Here's why: every scale degree has a technical name... and one of them (the fifth note) is the "dominant". If you're in the key of C, that would be G.

Oh so this is where all that Relative minor etc etc comes from, they are technical names of a scale degree. ( In that case Relative Minor because thats the only technical name I know, and I think its for the 6th note ? )

Now if you build a seventh chord starting from the dominant, but you use ONLY notes in the key of C, you get G-B-D-F. If you compare that to the key of G, the formula would be 1-3-5-b7. And since the dominant scale tone is the ONLY one that ends up with that pattern, we call it the "dominant seventh" chord.

Oh ok so a C7 = C dominant seventh or something of the sort.Or atleast thats how one would say it out loud, correctly.

2. The circle of fifths. If you start from the key of C, the fifth note is G. And the key of G has one sharp - all the F notes are sharp.

Now if you start with G, the fifth note is D. And if you're in the key of D, you get two sharps... F and C.

Start from D, the fifth note is A. The key of A has three sharps.

And so on. Once you get to F# (six sharps), the fifth note is C# - right here is where we switch off to flats. F# is enharmonic to Gb, and the fifth note in Gb is Db... which is enharmonic to C#.

So we can write out the whole circle: C-G-D-A-E-B-F#/Gb-Db-Ab-Eb-Bb-F-C.

It's got a lot of uses in music theory (especially applied theory), but in a nutshell that's what it is... how the scales overlap and relate to each other.

Ah ok I see it, its really helping that yesterday I sat down with my guitar and wrote down the major scales and noticed the step step step half step step step half step pattern, of course I'd read about it but its better when I figure it out on my own.

And now I can kinda see the circle, but I really don't even want to ask what "enharmonic" is... but here goes.. whats enharmonic mean ?

I really don't see why I should know what the circle is and learn it, but someday ( prolly a week after I learn it ) I'll be playing around, and suddenly get it ( that's what has happened so far xD ).

3. Ninth chords. Ninth chords are seventh chords with the ninth scale degree added. A dominant 9th is 1-3-5-b7-9. a major 9th is 1-3-5-7-9. a minor 9th is 1-b3-5-b7-9, and so on.

Ok so all these numbers that go up pile one on top of the other you can't have a ninth chord without the 7th chord and u can't have whatever higher number without the 7th or the 9th, and I'm guessing as of this moment in my level of knowledge the only ones you can raise or lower half a step to make a different chord are the 3rd and the 7th notes, the 5th one to diminish or augment but that is an exception I think.

NOW what is a ninth scale degree if you only have 7 note in a mayor scale , would the ninth scale degree be the second note ? ( e/g If we have a C7 we would add the um D ? to make it C9)

Whatever this Ninth Scale degree is I am sure its what is used to make an add 9 chord where you simply add the Ninth Scale Degree, and I'm shooting for the ninth scale degree being the second note because in a C add 9 you add a D in the second string :P.

4. In classical theory, a suspension is an event - a note that's held over during a chord change, and resolves later. For example, you might have a chord change from F to C.... F-A-C to C-E-G. The F moves down to E, and the A moves down to G.

OK so sus is suspended... time to go get my guitar so I can understand this thing.

But if you move the notes one by one, you might get F-A-C to F-G-C to E-G-C. The F is "suspended". Classical theory uses a lot of labels for things, and it's only a 'suspension' if it resolves DOWN to a chord tone (if it resolves up, it's a 'retardation'). Anyway, in the early days of jazz people wanted to put a label on that in-between sound - classical theory doesn't consider it a chord... it's more like a slow transition between two chords. So it ended up being called a 'suspended' chord.

Ok I didn't understand that F to C but lets do C to Bm

Ok C-E-G to B-D-F#, OK so the change if you were to do it note for note you could do C-E-G to C-D-G to B-D-F# so the D is suspended ?

So you could use the sus2 chord to change between C and Bm, like how you use Idk maybe a 7th chord so that it can be resolved later, I really don't have a grasp on what you can use to resolve and what you can used to be resolved O_O, but I understand the concept. I always thought sus was something like substitution O_O.

Its a transition between chords but since its used as a chord in its own right, there has to be some kind of formula O_O, a really complicated formula to unite everything at that xD.

But its kinda like a combination of chords, and one pattern I just caught right now is that in both instances of F to C and C to Bm, changed the 3rd note for the 2nd, and I still don't know ( until u tell me ) what the Ninth Scale degree, but if my theory is correct ( about it being the second note ) then we are changing the 3rd for the 9th in this sus 2 chords O_O

Ok so I kinda get that Sus 2 chords are more like a slow transition between chords, so what about Sus 4 ? cause in these chords the 3rd note gets raised a half step up...

Oh and when I say that the 3rd note gets raised half a step up its just a repeating pattern I see in all these chords surely you can explain why ( like you did in the Sus2 chords).

And yeah, you've got the basics of thirds down.

Wow its 1 am lol, thanks for the lessons I guess you could call them that O_O one can't ask questions to a book, unless I buy yours, cause then I can ask you xD.

Lol I bought it yesterday I'm waiting for it to get here, I bought it with my own money so it better be insightful and full of musical wisdom O_O.

From what I read its great , but you sold it to me, when I could understand 7th chords I was like O_O must buy that book, and after I bought it I read it was great, and was relieved lol.

Now all I need is a cool know-it-all name ( and actually knowing it all ) about music and I'm on my way to being a Music theory whiz, xD.

Hmm but I guess this is more like Chord Theory, music theory is more like reading and harmony ( the resolving thing ).

I've got a lot of running around to do today (we're having a ribbon cutting for my music school's expansion on Thursday), so rather than type out a long reply I'm going to refer you to some of the GN lessons.

Key Changes for the circle of fifths
Extended chords for ninths, etc
Altered States for what notes can be altered other than the third and seventh

For the questions that aren't answered there:

The scale degrees are:

1 - Tonic
2 - Supertonic
3 - Mediant
4 - Subdominant
5 - Dominant
6 - Submediant
7 - Leading tone

one other has a technical name too: b7 is the subtonic. Relative minors aren't relative because of a scale degree name - they're relative because they use the same key signature as the corresponding major scale.

And no, the B in your example wouldn't be a suspension in classical music theory - the C and G are. The notes held over from the first chord are the suspended ones. These non-harmonic tones can get complicated... but if you search the forum for 'sus' chords, you'll find more discussion than you want :)

I've got a lot of running around to do today (we're having a ribbon cutting for my music school's expansion on Thursday), so rather than type out a long reply I'm going to refer you to some of the GN lessons.

Key Changes for the circle of fifths
Extended chords for ninths, etc
Altered States for what notes can be altered other than the third and seventh

For the questions that aren't answered there:

The scale degrees are:

1 - Tonic
2 - Supertonic
3 - Mediant
4 - Subdominant
5 - Dominant
6 - Submediant
7 - Leading tone

one other has a technical name too: b7 is the subtonic. Relative minors aren't relative because of a scale degree name - they're relative because they use the same key signature as the corresponding major scale.

And no, the B in your example wouldn't be a suspension in classical music theory - the C and G are. The notes held over from the first chord are the suspended ones. These non-harmonic tones can get complicated... but if you search the forum for 'sus' chords, you'll find more discussion than you want :)

Cool, school expansion, more students :O, so now I basically understand all the extended chords now I need to sit down with my guitar and form some. Off to that

OK turns out I don't understand alot of things and there are some new things I want to ask xD. Ok here goes

Ok so in 9th chords you add the second note and take off the root ?

and in 11th chords you will have The 7th and the 9th ? or just the 1st, 3rd 5th, 7th ( or b7) and the 11th ?, and then you take off the 3rd note ?

13th chords.. Ok so you have the 1st 3rd 5th and 7th, but I can't take off the 7th cause then it will be an add 13 chord right ? I can just jump that 5th one whole step ? So I'll have 1st 3rd 6th and 7th?

Ok all these chords need to have a 7th on them or they will be "add" chords ( I actually like how add 11 sounds :D ).

Is there a difference between 6th chords and add 13 chords ?

Oh and the shapes, I really didn't understand those specific diagrams because it was a problem for me to print them out, right now I'm just looking for atleast two moveable shapes that i can count on for on the fly 11th and 13th chords ( 9th chords are the funk chords ^_^ ). Then later I'll find every specific chord by adding notes and what note, but I'll do that when I feel like it someday, when I will be prolly really bored.

I kinda have been getting everything, but Idk if you've noticed but I like to repeat the things you say In a way I'd understand, kinda like explaining stuff to myself, but its awesome to have somebody that says "Yep, right" Or "No" ( and a long explanation xD )

And finally why do you answer all my questions with such detail ? Love of the craft ? Love of teaching ? You'd feel bad if you didn't ? xD

Oh yeah and I also read your lesson on chord substitution, and I got a really nice ii- V-I jazz progression out of it, and I wrote down the Relative minors, I can substitute X chord for the Relative Minor and I can also use the scale of the relative minor when soloing over X chord right, and I can also use the dominant?, ahh but I'm afraid if you answer those 2 questions it will branch out leading to more and more questions xD.

Ok so in 9th chords you add the second note and take off the root ?

You don't have to take anything out if you don't want to. One of the common 9th fingerings on guitar is x32333... that's C9: C-E-Bb-D-G (1-3-b7-9-5), so it has all of them.

But it's common for harmony to be four-part, and that means dropping one note. You need the important ones: b7 (else it's an add9), 3 (so you know if it's C9 or Cm9), and the 9th (otherwise it isn't one). That leaves the root or fifth - you can drop either one if you want. If you drop the root, as I showed in that lesson, you end up with a m7b5 chord - but you'll still get the right sound, because you're playing all the key notes. And in a band situation, your bass or keys is probably filling in the root anyway.

11th chords drop the 3rd, unless they're m11 chords. That's because of a conflict between 3 and 11. Again, keep the most important notes: R/5, b7, 11. The 9th is optional too.

Yes, you can jump the 5th by a whole step. Technically, if it doesn't have a b7 it's a 6th chord. 6th chords are major chord types; 13th chords are dominant.

What I laid out in that lesson is just one way to find extended chords - the more chord shapes you know, the smoother your playing will be. By starting from four different 7th chords, we spread out the derived extended chords throughout the fretboard - so you've always got one handy, within a couple of frets.
And finally why do you answer all my questions with such detail ? Love of the craft ? Love of teaching ? You'd feel bad if you didn't ?

I dunno. All or none of the above. And on substitutions, yes - you can substitute harmonically (by changing the chord) or melodically (but changing the scale) or both.

oh so 13th chords are a 6th with a b7.

Woohoo I've got it now.

next is harmony, could you direct me to some lessons ( you know the thing with the Roman numerals, harmony right ? ) so I can then ask about them ? xD

Wow, productive summer.

Here are a couple of tables that people have found useful (just to reduce Noteboat's workload a bit).

Notes of the various keys and their relative minors:
Major Relative Key I ii iii IV V vi vii°
Key Minor Signature 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
----------------------------------------------------------------
C major A minor C D E F G A B
G major E minor # G A B C D E F#
D major B minor ## D E F# G A B C#
A major F# minor ### A B C# D E F# G#
E major C# minor #### E F# G# A B C# D#
B major G# minor ##### B C# D# E F# G# A#
F# major D# minor ###### F# G# A# B C# D# E#
F major D minor b F G A Bb C D E
Bb major G minor bb Bb C D Eb F G A
Eb major C minor bbb Eb F G Ab Bb C D
Ab major F minor bbbb Ab Bb C Db Eb F G
Db major Bb minor bbbbb Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
Gb major Eb minor bbbbbb Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F
----------------------------------------------------------------

Here's how you harmonise the major scale to form chords:
Notes by scale degree Notes by name (in C)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 C D E F G A B C Chord no. Chord name.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 3 5 C E G I C major
2 4 6 D F A ii D minor
3 5 7 E G B iii E minor
4 6 8 F A C IV F major
5 7 9 G B D V G major
6 8 10 A C E vi A minor
7 9 11 B D F vii° B diminished

Here's how various types of chords are formed:
Chord Notes(degree) Notes(C root) Notes(A root)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
major 1 3 5 C E G A C# E
6 1 3 5 6 C E G A A C# E F#
7 (dom7) 1 3 5 b7 C E G Bb A C# E G
maj7 (M7) 1 3 5 7 C E G B A C# E G#
9 1 3 5 b7 9 C E G Bb D A C# E G B
maj9 (M9) 1 3 5 7 9 C E G B D A C# E G# B
11 1 3 5 b7 (9) 11 C E G Bb F A C# E G D # extremely rare
maj11 1 3 5 7 (9) 11 C E G B F A C# E G# D # extremely rare
add11 1 3 5 11 C E G F A C# E D
13 1 3 5 b7 (9 11) 13 C E G Bb A A C# E G F#
add9 1 3 5 C E G D A C# E B
sus2 (2) 1 2 5 C D G A B E
sus4 (sus) 1 4 5 C F G A D E
sus#4 1 #4 5 C F# G A D# E
sus7 1 4 5 b7 C F G Bb A D E G
5 1 5 C G A E
aug 1 3 #5 C E G# A C# E#(F)
6/9 1 3 5 6 9 C E G A D A C# E F# B
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
minor (m) 1 b3 5 C Eb G A C E
min7 (m7) 1 b3 5 b7 C Eb G Bb A C E G
min9 (m9) 1 b3 5 b7 9 C Eb G Bb D A C E G B
min11 1 b3 5 b7 (9) 11 C Eb G Bb F A C E G D
minmaj7 1 b3 5 7 C Eb G B A C E G#
dim (°) 1 b3 b5 C Eb Gb A C Eb
dim7 1 b3 b5 bb7 C Eb Gb A A C Eb F#
min7b5 1 b3 b5 b7 C Eb Gb Bb A C Eb G
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And ... for good measure, the circle of 5ths:
C
F G

Bb D

Eb A

Ab E

Db B
F#
Bb is also known as A# in some keys.
Eb is also known as D# in some keys.
Ab is also known as G# in some keys.
Db is also known as C# in some keys.

Hmm so in those charts is what I already know in neatly organized chart form ( harder to understand too :P )

The only thing I don't understand is the harmonizing scales, what is that ? O_O

The only thing I don't understand is the harmonizing scales, what is that ? O_O

Well, each major key has seven notes, right? 1_2_34_5_6_78 or in C, the simplest key, C_D_EF_G_A_BC?

To "harmonize" the key, or play chords that fit with notes from the key, you pick every other note? 1, 3 and 5. Hence the I (tonic, home) chord is C major which has the notes C-E-G. Chords are numbered with Roman numerals (I, ii, iii) while notes are numbered Arabic (1, 2, 3etc).

Major (and augmented) chords are denoted with upper case (I, IV, V) while minor (and diminished) chords are shown with lower case (ii, iii, vi, vii°).

The table shows how you form chords from the notes of the major key and why the primary chords I, IV and V are major and the secondary chords (ii, iii, vi) are minor. The diminished vii° chord is a special case of the V chord as you can see. The V is very often played as a dominant 7th chord (5-7-9-11, g-b-d-f) so it is mostly the same chord as the vii° (7-9-11, b-d-f).

I hope that helps.

The only thing I don't understand is the harmonizing scales, what is that ? O_O

Well, each major key has seven notes, right? 1_2_34_5_6_78 or in C, the simplest key, C_D_EF_G_A_BC?

To "harmonize" the key, or play chords that fit with notes from the key, you pick every other note? 1, 3 and 5. Hence the I (tonic, home) chord is C major which has the notes C-E-G. Chords are numbered with Roman numerals (I, ii, iii) while notes are numbered Arabic (1, 2, 3etc).

Major (and augmented) chords are denoted with upper case (I, IV, V) while minor (and diminished) chords are shown with lower case (ii, iii, vi, vii°).

The table shows how you form chords from the notes of the major key and why the primary chords I, IV and V are major and the secondary chords (ii, iii, vi) are minor. The diminished vii° chord is a special case of the V chord as you can see. The V is very often played as a dominant 7th chord (5-7-9-11, g-b-d-f) so it is mostly the same chord as the vii° (7-9-11, b-d-f).

I hope that helps.

So that means when I am playing in C as the I, the notes that will prolly fit with it are those on the C scale, so every other note, but I could see how this could work with more sharps and flats ( using the circle of fifths ? ).

And the ii, iii, vi, vii, should be played as minor when playing in C and only 1 IV V should be played as major.

More or less ? O_O

Maybe this will help

Try this for the circle of fifths

O_O it will help my confusion?

OK OK The first chart shows the major scale, and all the notes in between that you don't play.

So the chart under it tells you what notes you need to use in order to make a Mode, in each of the Mode the I gets moved, its the same scale, just starting at a different place ?

Sigh, I'm sorry but I think these charts are confusing me more its just too much information like thrown at me, maybe I'll think about all this and get it ( I hope )

Edit: Ohhh wait now I understand the chart its a chart showing me what I already know, thats why I got so confused ^_^ thx lol.

I'm a bit late, but I think the Circle of Fifths has another interesting usage: if you go around it backwards, it is the Circle Of Fourths.

So... Going one way, you get F - C - G - D - A - E - B, each not is the 5th of the last. If you go backwards, E is the fourth of B, A is the fourth of E, etc.

So if you want a quick reference to what the 4th & 5th of your key are, just think of the circle of fourths/fifths. The note before the one that is your root note is the fourth, and the one after is the fifth.

So if I pick the key of B, , E is the fourth, and F# is the fifth. Makes it pretty easy to whip up a I - IV - V progression or something similar.